Mary Cain has OFFICIALLY surpassed Jim Ryun's legacy.

Nothing Special wrote:

No, he didn't. You're wrong. I've already explained why.

Moron

We've been through this

Refer to my first post in this thread

"Times were slower back then"

idiot, times were run on shitty cinder tracks without rabbiting and massive negative splits

moron, if mary cain were running in 1964 she would not be running the times she has now

get that thru your pea brain

want some analysis? try -

solo 3'58.3 mile in high school only competition

- 4s for shitty, torn up cinder track--> synthetic (1s/lap)

- 3s for no rabbits to the bell (1s/lap)

- 1s to account for massive negative split

That is 3'50.3 mile in a time trial setting like the one in which webb ran 3'53. And it does not account for time permanently lost to slow initial laps. No doubt worth 3'49.xx

This from an athlete who ran for his high school, ran MANY races, relays, trained with his team, not a private coach, did insane workouts, etc

As I've said, when Cain breaks the american 1500m or mile record and beats the olympic gold & silver medalists, then we can start talking, until then pipe down.

You really think either the 800 or 1500 meter women's champion from 2012 is better than Peter Snell ? The guy ran 1:44 on grass and won the 800/1500 double in 1964 with 3 total mid-distance golds. He crushed the 1500 in 1964 by 1.5 seconds with a final lap of 52.7 on cinder (despite letting up at the line) with a 25.0 split from 1200-1400.

I prefer that she doesn't surpass Jim Ryun's achievements pace, because she could overrun her natural development, lose enjoyment, and burn out. Wise pacing over the course of a race, and over the course of her career will be more notable, mature achievents. Just look at Yelena Isinbayeva, for example.

You literally made all of that up.

"4s for shitty, torn up cinder track--> synthetic (1s/lap)"

- No scientific basis

"3s for no rabbits to the bell (1s/lap)"

- Also made up.

"1s to account for massive split"

- See above

Definately not worth a 3:49 and Ryun would laugh in your face if you told him that.

"As I've said, when Cain breaks the american 1500m or mile record and beats the olympic gold & silver medalists,"

- Just because you say it doesn't mean anything. Records were weaker back then. Competition was weaker and less deep as well. There's a reason Ryun is the only high school male to break an American Record, because it was the 60s. Not a difficult concept lol

You can argue one way or another until the cows come here, but nobody's right, and you'll never reach an agreement.

You can't compare era's, that's not a valid metric, either.

Yes, I agree with this post. Oh, wait a second . . . .

yea well... wrote:

Mary Cain has to deal with the African contingent, many of whom were not present during Ryun's time.

Nothing Special wrote:

Ryun > Cain wrote:

Ryun > Cain until Cain beats an Olympic or World Champion, while finishing first, and still being in HS.

Like I already said, beating an the 1964 Olympic Champ isn't the same as beating the 2012 one. The competition in Ryun's time was much weaker and had less depth.

1964 weak? Peter Snell is an Olympic legend. He scored several Gold Medals and World Records. Ryun did not just beat some obscure 1960's-era stud, he beat a legend.

Also, Ryun's junior year in high school he ran 3:39.0 for 1500m, only 3 1/2 seconds off of the WR, a WR that at the time was viewed as the pinnacle of all T&F World Records.

Jim actually ran high school meets except about two. Besides in xc, Cain has run rabbited pro races and has run to peak for worlds. Jim had his focus on breaking 4 and states Cain didn't even run in her state meet. Also by the way Ryun in high school beat a guy that ran a 1:44.3 800 on grass I'm pretty sure Snell would be world class today. Unless she beats a top 4 in the world runner, her performances aren't even close.

yesstiles wrote:

Nothing Special wrote:

Like I already said, beating an the 1964 Olympic Champ isn't the same as beating the 2012 one. The competition in Ryun's time was much weaker and had less depth.

1964 weak? Peter Snell is an Olympic legend. He scored several Gold Medals and World Records. Ryun did not just beat some obscure 1960's-era stud, he beat a legend.

Also, Ryun's junior year in high school he ran 3:39.0 for 1500m, only 3 1/2 seconds off of the WR, a WR that at the time was viewed as the pinnacle of all T&F World Records.

Yes, 1964 was weaker THAN NOW. The competition was weaker and less deep than now! What's so hard to understand about that?

It's the same reason why no one will do the Zapotek triple ever again. He was only able to accomplish that because it was the 50s. Competition is stronger, there's more talent, and people are more specialized than the 50s. It just can't happen.

Yes, Ryun ran 3.5 seconds off the WR because he was a mega-talent, but also because IT WAS THE 60s! Would someone have to run a 3:29.5 to be equivalent? OF COURSE NOT. It would be way more impressive if a high schooler broke 3:30.

You forgot that now days everybody is on drugs.

Ryun > Cain

Luckily, Cain still has some time to go.

Nothing Special wrote:

Yes, 1964 was weaker THAN NOW. The competition was weaker and less deep than now! What's so hard to understand about that?

It's the same reason why no one will do the Zapotek triple ever again. He was only able to accomplish that because it was the 50s. Competition is stronger, there's more talent, and people are more specialized than the 50s. It just can't happen.

Yes, Ryun ran 3.5 seconds off the WR because he was a mega-talent, but also because IT WAS THE 60s! Would someone have to run a 3:29.5 to be equivalent? OF COURSE NOT. It would be way more impressive if a high schooler broke 3:30.

I disagree about the triple. It could be done these days (1500, 5000, 10k). No one has the balls for it.

Also, high schoolers ARE able to run elite world class times these days just like Ryun was. I'm sure there's at least 1 African who has run 3:30ish/12:5x as a junior/high schooler in the past several years. In order to compare across eras, you have to compare their relative dominance. Not their times.

I've been giving this a lot of thought. I think Ryun is still GOAT. However, if Cain medals then I've got to give it to Cain.

What Ryun did his junior and senior years is remarkable. Cain's not quite there yet, but she's damn close. And it wouldn't surprise me to see her take down the American 1500 record next year.

BTW... I produced the definitive television documentary chronicling Ryun's running career.

Isn't this just a fundamentally flawed and silly comparison?

Male and female maturation rates are so different that you can't simply look at a high school senior and compare across genders. 15 year old girls have qualified for the Olympics and that is essentially impossible for men in the middle and long distances.

So Cain and Ryun cannot be compared directly. Relative to other prodigies for their respective genders and eras Ryun is probably more impressive. Are people seriously arguing that? The future may be different and Cain may have the more impressive career overall.

Cain is debatably not even much better than two other girls from Europe. Outstanding athlete of course, mind! I wish her well.

jxjsj wrote:

I disagree about the triple. It could be done these days (1500, 5000, 10k). No one has the balls for it.

But then, that's not the 5k, 10k, marathon. You know, the triple Zatopek did, which is now impossible to do.

Mary Cain, GOAT??? Didn't Sarah Baxter whip on her at NXN last year? Jim Ryun beat the Olympic champion and World record holder while still in high school...hardly comparable.

Let's get real. Mary Cain is doing great. But to put her in a legacy race with Ryan or Lindgren or Pre, get real. If you were around when Gerry and Jim or Steve were in high school running races, you would know that they ran for the high schools they attended. The coaches were the high school coaches.

Phil Knight had not heard the word "Nike" and the runners ran high school races and were occasionally invited to Open races. They all ran many races against world leading runners. Cain has run a few races against world leading runners, and not always won. Don't pretend to enter Cain yet in any legacy yet. Let her do her thing, as she is doing today. There were no World Championships until 1983 in Helsinki. So Ryan, Lindgren and Prefontaine were all finished before then. But never try to put that meet in the same breathe as an Olympic Games. Nike does not pay as much for a World Championship medal as they do for an Olympic medal, so go figure! I hope Cain goes onto greater performances. She is wonderful, and I am sure she would get a kick out of reading all your comments. Right now she is wondering how young Jim Ryan beats Jim Grelle for the third spot to making the 1500 team for the Olympic team. Why would she be wondering that? Because she faces off with her elder teammate in the 1500 final, which is very similar to Ryan facing Grelle in the final US Trials. They were both juniors at the time. Of course Ryan ran as a high schooler, not a professional. Go figure.

jsmskks wrote:

What don't you understand about that not being a valid comparison? You can't compare the Olympics with the world championships.

Wait, what? They are both global championships that everyone competes in. If anything the world championships are more competitive because the country with the reigning world champion gets 4 entrants.

On what basis are you saying you can't compare the Olympics and World Championship? You're saying it like it's self evident but I don't see a difference.

Let's get real. Mary Cain is doing great. But to put her in a legacy race with Ryan or Lindgren or Pre, get real. If you were around when Gerry and Jim or Steve were in high school running races, you would know that they ran for the high schools they attended. The coaches were the high school coaches.

Phil Knight had not heard the word "Nike" and the runners ran high school races and were occasionally invited to Open races. They all ran many races against world leading runners. Cain has run a few races against world leading runners, and not always won. Don't pretend to enter Cain yet in any legacy yet. Let her do her thing, as she is doing today. There were no World Championships until 1983 in Helsinki. So Ryan, Lindgren and Prefontaine were all finished before then. But never try to put that meet in the same breathe as an Olympic Games. Nike does not pay as much for a World Championship medal as they do for an Olympic medal, so go figure! I hope Cain goes onto greater performances. She is wonderful, and I am sure she would get a kick out of reading all your comments. Right now she is wondering how young Jim Ryan beats Jim Grelle for the third spot to making the 1500 team for the Olympic team. Why would she be wondering that? Because she faces off with her elder teammate in the 1500 final, which is very similar to Ryan facing Grelle in the final US Trials. They were both juniors at the time. Of course Ryan ran as a high schooler, not a professional. Go figure.