Anyone else think this standard attempt by Hasay and Erdmann is a little pathetic?

Yes,100% it is the fact that men are doing the pacing. This is generally something that is considered to invalidate a record performance and the qualification exception exists so that there are enough races for women to enter, not so that they can take advantage of male pace-setters who aren't really competing.

Unlike, say, Cory McGee, who's chasing the 1,500 standard in Europe, and who just missed at her first try, but because it's only 1,500 she can try a few times more before the July 20 deadline, Hasay and Erdmann, who satisfied one necessary condition for running worlds (they came in the top three at Nationals), have only one shot to make the "A" and/or "B" standard. But the problem is that there is no scheduled 10,000 meter race (for men or women) to run. Yes, there was one in Ostrava for women, but that was less than a week after Nationals, something not feasible at all. So, Salazar is left to set up a race himself. At minimum, five athletes must finish the race in order for any times to count toward the world standard ("A" or "B"). Do you think five women or more would be willing to go to Portland to race 10000 in the middle of July, and not only willing, but there will be a guarantee that five of them will finish? How about if the date is not fixed because of hot weather? These are significant questions and obstacles independent of whether there are paces or not. Now, suppose it makes sense--and indeed it does--to have pacers. Can we get women pacers who can go out in 15:50 (this in and of itself is a difficult obstacle) and then finish the race--unless we have other women who we somehow find who will start and finish the race. I can guarantee one thing: that unless Hasay's and Erdmann's own feet carry them over 10,000 meters fast enough, they will not be going to Moscow to run--a woman or two who they beat will be going instead. Given this--that is, that they will be doing the running--I have no problems with male pacers.

rojo wrote:

The question I have is do they go for the 'A' which might be a stretch and cost them the 'b'. Hasay only needs the 'b' to go Moscow but her teammate needs one of them to get the 'a'. A 21 second pb seems unlikely to say the least for Hasay.

Good point. My guess is they'll run 'B' standard pace through 5k or so and then if one/both is feeling great they give the 'A' standard a shot. I think you're right in that Alberto will play his cards somewhat conservative in that he'd like to have at least one of them make the team, rather than try to hit a home run with both and strike out with both. Or if he's that confident in Hasay's recent workouts, maybe she runs 'A' pace while Erdmann runs 'B' pace.

Human Torch wrote:

Yes,100% it is the fact that men are doing the pacing. This is generally something that is considered to invalidate a record performance and the qualification exception exists so that there are enough races for women to enter, not so that they can take advantage of male pace-setters who aren't really competing.

I understand there is clearly a grey area when it comes to mixed races, but is it really different if 2 superior male runners were pacing a male teammate for an entire 5000m or 10000m race? Would you have a problem if Rupp and Ritz were to pace Puskedra to the 'A' standard for an entire 10k as they "aren't really competing?"

I honestly wonder if it wasn't Salazar/Nike, would there be as much resistance from the Letsrun crowd? If this was New Balance setting up a race for Kim Conley to run an 'A' standard, would there be half as much objection or would NB be praised for going the extra mile for one of their athletes?

how hard would it be to get some european race director at a minor meet to add on a 10k at the end of a night meet? there are tons of these meets out there.

history guy wrote:

Anyone remember what happened the last time Alberto was switching the dates of a 10,000 around? Chris Solinsky killed his boy Galen Rupp and ran 26:59. That crushed Galen (Ever sine then, Galen and Al Sal have upped their game (wink wink) and been unbeatable). I'd love to see something like that happen here.

Here's a thought and way to make it happen.

If I was an adidas employee, I'd do the following just to make a mockery of it. Call up a good Kenyan road racer and say, "Here's $5000. I want you to enter the 'race' and crush them. OH yeah, please wear this singlet. It says adidas on the front and 'Thyroid loser' on the back."

Right, because there are all kinds of unsigned Kenyan women that can easily crush women running between the A and B 10k standard.

Smart post.

mellorunner wrote:

codger wrote:

It gives women an unfair advantage over men. Do away with this travesty to the sport.

How?

I'm sure if a guy wanted to be paced by a female that would be fine. And we established long ago that a guy can pace another guy. So exactly what benefit is being received that a guy couldn't also get?

These girls will be paced (and sheltered) for an ENTIRE 10,000...how many male pacers could pace elite men for an ENTIRE 10,000????? That, my friend, is the unfair advantage.

This won't be a race - it will be a group tempo run.

jjjjjjjjj wrote:

how hard would it be to get some european race director at a minor meet to add on a 10k at the end of a night meet? there are tons of these meets out there.

That's a weird suggestion. Do you really think there's something unfair about racing without jetlag or something? Why would someone in Oregon set up a 10K in Europe when they could set up a 10K in Oregon?

Are we really talking about how women have an unfair advantage over men in the sport?

Maybe men should be able to compete in their own division then since they are disadvantaged?

codger wrote:

These girls will be paced (and sheltered) for an ENTIRE 10,000...how many male pacers could pace elite men for an ENTIRE 10,000????? That, my friend, is the unfair advantage.

This won't be a race - it will be a group tempo run.

Ritz and Rupp could easily pace Puskedra for an "ENTIRE" 10k and it wouldn't be an all-out effort by either Ritz or Rupp - is that fair?

rojo wrote:

The question I have is do they go for the 'A' which might be a stretch and cost them the 'b'. Hasay only needs the 'b' to go Moscow but her teammate needs one of them to get the 'a'. A 21 second pb seems unlikely to say the least for Hasay.

yuiop wrote:

Good point. My guess is they'll run 'B' standard pace through 5k or so and then if one/both is feeling great they give the 'A' standard a shot. I think you're right in that Alberto will play his cards somewhat conservative in that he'd like to have at least one of them make the team, rather than try to hit a home run with both and strike out with both. Or if he's that confident in Hasay's recent workouts, maybe she runs 'A' pace while Erdmann runs 'B' pace.

Hasay's 32:17 in Des Moines was better than the 32:06 at Stanford, which was held under better conditions. So who knows maybe that 21 sec is possible under ideal conditions with pacers. The issue might be is she going to be'cooked' after running so many races this year. Erdman's a long shot but has nothing to lose.

Have the race early (7 AM start) when it would be in the low 60s (but humidity in the 60-64% range) or late (like 10 or 11 PM) when it's cooling down and the humidity would be lower (60s or about 70 and 55-60%).

Finally, rojo, please delete stick with eharmony's posts in this thread and consider banning him. This site would be the better for it.

If this were a debate about whether it SHOULD be allowable for women to be paced/sheltered by men, that would be one thing. But clearly the rule has been established that this invalidates a performance. The fact that mixed races are allowed in track 10ks because there are so few races doesn't invalidate the established principle/rule that men pacing women invalidates the performance. As long as that is the rule-- and it pretty clearly is, unless they have reinstated Paula Radcliffe's times, then this effort in Eugene is NOT within the spirit of the rules.

I root for Rupp, Hasay, Centro, etc. This isn't a LetsRun, Al Sal hate thing for me at all. But Al Sal does seem to be comfortable pushing loopholes than I feel comfortable with. See, Thyroid meds. Other than that, I think he is an OUTSTANDING coach.

Human Torch wrote:

unless they have reinstated Paula Radcliffe's times, then this effort in Eugene is NOT within the spirit of the rules.

IAAF has, and this effort is not in Eugene.

yuiop wrote:

I understand there is clearly a grey area when it comes to mixed races, but is it really different if 2 superior male runners were pacing a male teammate for an entire 5000m or 10000m race? Would you have a problem if Rupp and Ritz were to pace Puskedra to the 'A' standard for an entire 10k as they "aren't really competing?"

This hypothetical situation wouldn't happen because in same sex races the inferior runners are used as pacers. not the reverse. Salazar (or probably any coach) wouldn't waste his A runners running a 10k to pace an inferior teammate. Never happen.

The problem with male pacers pacing female runners is that situation only exists for female runners. Male pacers that could pace a male runner all the way to the finish would be good enough to be competitors. You would never see a male runner pacing another male runner to a world record marathon because if they could, they would be a world record setter themselves.

So yes, it is an unfair situation for female runners. It also makes a mockery of the idea of races as competitive events. The situation is really a staged time trial disguised as a competition. What if an NFL team had a runner close to breaking the single season rushing record and ran the ball every play just so he could break the record at expense of being competitive in the game? It would reflect badly on the sport as a whole.

There's last chance qualifying meets held all the time for the NCAAs, for example, but the events are real competitions. The micromanaging by Salazar is within the rules but I really think the rule should be changed to only same sex competitive results being allowed as qualifying marks.

Interpretation of the rules has created a debate over whether or not this time trial (not a race) is legit.

Can we all agree that it falls into a questionable area?

THAT IS ALBERTO. Everything he does falls into the debatable area.

The END always makes the process worth it. No matter how questionable it is.

i know baseball games get postponed due to rainout.

i know football games have been delayed/postponed due to lightning.

i have not heard of track meets delayed due to heat, and i cant imagine oregon even in the summer too hot for a track meet.

i am okay with mixed races with the idea to use men to pace the woman, the woman still have to run on their own feet.

i do have a hard time rooting for salazars athletes, they dont race much, they use all this expensive stuff that is not available to everyone, everything has to be so perfect.

i am sure yuki kawauchi has run when it is too hot for ideal performance, when he is not totally recovered etc.

i wish salazar would have his athletes compete when everything is not perfect.

Pathetic? I was less than a second from making the team last year. I literally would give one of my fingers to have gone to London. This is small potatoes, man. Get close yourself, and I've got a feeling your highly judgemental (and I'll informed, I might add) ways would be completely turned on their axis.

Andrew bayer, Ryan martin, elijah greer, tyler mulder, mark wieczorek. Are one of these names yours. Or are you a b grade sprinter

Snap of fingers wrote:

Pathetic? I was less than a second from making the team last year. I literally would give one of my fingers to have gone to London. This is small potatoes, man. Get close yourself, and I've got a feeling your highly judgemental (and I'll informed, I might add) ways would be completely turned on their axis.