Why do people think Jim Ryun was so great?

Men's Amateur Depth 1960's > Modern Women's Depth All Levels

Male and female interest and participation rates in sports is the answer.

He is still the second fastest high school miler--that means something. Ryun was a great runner, regardless of the competition. You're making a poor argument against him. If you take Ryun's high school achievements, he's pretty solidly in the top-3, and perhaps number one. But he's nowhere close, in comparison, to Mary Cain. She's on another planet. At 17, she's established herself as easily the greatest high school girl in history. Maybe you can also make the depth argument against Mary though. Girls sports are not as far along in overall depth/development as boys sports. She might be the first greatest, much like Ryun.

Here's my boys top 5, for what it's worth:

1) Alan Webb-he was a mortal in XC, but the greatest high school track runner we've ever seen. I give track more respect than XC.

2) Jim Ryun-Think about how we'd react to a high school 3:55 today. He did it on cinders.

3) Lucas V-Incredibly well-rounded. He was good at everything from XC to the track and dropped some phenomenal times. Don't let his post-high school career muddy his high school accomplishments.

4/5 This is a tie between Ritz and Lindgren-These two had guts for days. Lindgren was internationally competitive in high school, like Ryun. His indoor 2 mile record was unbelievable, and to this day, might still be the greatest high school performance. As for Ritz, back to back Footlockers said it all. Webb stole the spotlight with the 3:53, but there's no doubt in my mind that Ritz could've gone sub-4 if he trained for it in high school (interestingly, he's never done it in his career). Ritz was a phenom. That was a special year for high school running.

Oooh, another iconoclast on LR....

Ryun ran 1:44 and 3:51 on cinder tracks over 40 years ago. That's why he's great.

You should stick to simpler questions in the "What's up with that?" or "Deep thoughts" mode.

3:55 is 3:55, regardless of the level of competition. Ryun still has 5 or 6 of the fastest prep times ever.

That's the great thing about track. You can compare performances from across different times and locations.

ijbsjsjkdjbsnhdj wrote:

Men's Amateur Depth 1960's > Modern Women's Depth All Levels

Male and female interest and participation rates in sports is the answer.

^This.

You can't simply compare Ryun's times to today's standards. New eras tend to foster better performances because of what past eras didn't have. Look at where Ryun stacked up in the scope of the world's best runners of his day, and compare that to where Cain, Webb, or anyone else ranked among the world's best of their time. That is why he was so great.

Back then wrote:

1) Alan Webb-he was a mortal in XC, but the greatest high school track runner we've ever seen. I give track more respect than XC.

That's a pretty strong statement when you consider the others out there. Ryun's GOAT status really comes from what he did in 1965-1967, starting with his defeat of Snell and really ending with mono (he was never the same again, something many people here forget).

But, at age 17, Allyson Felix ran the fastest time in the world. The next year, she won an Olympic silver. The next year (age 19) she won WC gold. Webb had the fatest time in the world in 2007, but no medals. His whole career wasn't worth as much as what Allyson accomplished by 19.

coach d wrote:

Back then wrote:

1) Alan Webb-he was a mortal in XC, but the greatest high school track runner we've ever seen. I give track more respect than XC.

That's a pretty strong statement when you consider the others out there. Ryun's GOAT status really comes from what he did in 1965-1967, starting with his defeat of Snell and really ending with mono (he was never the same again, something many people here forget).

But, at age 17, Allyson Felix ran the fastest time in the world. The next year, she won an Olympic silver. The next year (age 19) she won WC gold. Webb had the fatest time in the world in 2007, but no medals. His whole career wasn't worth as much as what Allyson accomplished by 19.

I should've been more clear. I was talking about high school distance runners and their high school careers only.

CorpulentCruiser wrote:

ijbsjsjkdjbsnhdj wrote:

Men's Amateur Depth 1960's > Modern Women's Depth All Levels

Male and female interest and participation rates in sports is the answer.

^This.

You can't simply compare Ryun's times to today's standards. New eras tend to foster better performances because of what past eras didn't have. Look at where Ryun stacked up in the scope of the world's best runners of his day, and compare that to where Cain, Webb, or anyone else ranked among the world's best of their time. That is why he was so great.

The only intelligent response of the thread. How can you

even begin to argue that Jim Ryun's HS performances and beyond were not great? Running on cinder tracks, leather spikes, and most importantly, the training methodology was quite crude compared to today. Pool workouts - Fogettaboutit. Advanced nutritional analysis - No Way Jose. They were on the cutting edge in terms of training and Timmons was experimenting with things as they progressed. They didn't exactly have a model template to work from. So, 3:55 and 1:48y in HS and you have ask why do people think Jim Ryun was so great?

CorpulentCruiser wrote:

You can't simply compare Ryun's times to today's standards. New eras tend to foster better performances because of what past eras didn't have. Look at where Ryun stacked up in the scope of the world's best runners of his day, and compare that to where Cain, Webb, or anyone else ranked among the world's best of their time. That is why he was so great.

Hold on just a minute.

Did you ignore the ENTIRE post made by the OP??

Maybe I missed something, but from what I read, he made a very valid point about how Jim Ryun only stacked up to the world-class runners in the 1960s because the entire world of running was far less competitive as a result of the lack of monetary motivation.

You come along and say that Ryun was great because he stacked up to the world's best runners of his day.

As far as I'm aware, you've just tried to make a point that has been invalid from the opening statement. As much as I hate how some of the corporate and financial factors have played in running today, the OP is right about one thing, and it's that it has fostered some DAMN good runners.

Jim Ryun could only compete on the world stage as a high school runner because the world stage was pretty damn shitty. The best from high school didn't develop to their potential. They had to call it quits because there was no future in running.

Look at some of our guys now like Symmonds. He's the best 800m runner the US has got and he used to be a D3 runner! Back in 1967, he would never have had a chance to continue his running career after HS/College.

Middle Distance Analyst wrote:

The only intelligent response of the thread. How can you

even begin to argue that Jim Ryun's HS performances and beyond were not great? Running on cinder tracks, leather spikes, and most importantly, the training methodology was quite crude compared to today. Pool workouts - Fogettaboutit. Advanced nutritional analysis - No Way Jose. They were on the cutting edge in terms of training and Timmons was experimenting with things as they progressed. They didn't exactly have a model template to work from. So, 3:55 and 1:48y in HS and you have ask why do people think Jim Ryun was so great?

Ignoring the fact that the post you're quoting is trying to make a point that was addressed in the opening statement, let's take a look at a few of your points. Primarily, you're claiming that Jim Ryun is great because he developed as a runner in a technologically disadvantaged era. Presently, the majority of Kenyan runners grew up in families living on less than $2000 a year, do not have modern tracks, can barely afford shoes, do not have the privilege of well-balanced diets, do not have bone analysts, do not have certified athletic trainers in their high schools, do not even have POOLS much less pool-running, do not have access to any high level equipment, etc. A VERY select few in Kenya have first-world commodities. The majority of world-class Kenyan runners must also work in the police force.

Therefore, every Kenyan runner, due to the inherent disadvantages they developed in, should be considered greater than Jim Ryun and every other American runner who has ever lived. Incidentally, this is illogical. So is your point about Jim Ryun.

God points. Where would the OP be in his argument with Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio or Jackie Robinson? The people hit the balls out of the park!! Modern day guys rarely do that.Jim Ryun was the man, ONLY Mary Cain is coming close to being a rival to that. Love watching her.

Not so Fast There wrote:

Therefore, every Kenyan runner, due to the inherent disadvantages they developed in, should be considered greater than Jim Ryun and every other American runner who has ever lived. Incidentally, this is illogical. So is your point about Jim Ryun.

llort_vbo wrote:

Oooh, another iconoclast on LR....

Ryun ran 1:44 and 3:51 on cinder tracks over 40 years ago. That's why he's great.

You should stick to simpler questions in the "What's up with that?" or "Deep thoughts" mode.

What's your point? Are you trying to make the "disadvantages" argument? Kip Keino devastated Ryun at the Olympics and despite growing up and developing his running living on less than $300 a year for his entire family. Personally, I'd think that the nutritional, technological, and developmental deficiencies inherently present there are disadvantages far greater than anything Ryun could have faced. Yet people still claim that Ryun was the better runner.

Do I sense some hypocrisy here? Ryun ran good times in shitty conditions so he is superior to all modern americans, yet Keino raced in the same conditions AND had to grow up with a hundredfold fewer privileges than Ryun did and is still considered his inferior?

Moe's Tavern wrote:

God points. Where would the OP be in his argument with Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio or Jackie Robinson? The people hit the balls out of the park!! Modern day guys rarely do that.

Jim Ryun was the man, ONLY Mary Cain is coming close to being a rival to that. Love watching her.

Not sure if we're on the same page here.

I agree with the OP that Ryun is put a bit too high on a pedestal. Not sure if you think the same.

eeeooor wrote:

3:55 is 3:55, regardless of the level of competition. Ryun still has 5 or 6 of the fastest prep times ever.

That's the great thing about track. You can compare performances from across different times and locations.

I don't think you've understood my point.

I am not specifically arguing with Ryun being considered the greatest high school miler of all time (although personally, I don't think he is, because Webb's time was simply better than his)

I am arguing with the idea that many posters on this site consider him to be the greatest American runner of all time. Every time there's a thread with Rupp, people come in and say that he'll never compare with Ryun.

Incidentally, Rupp, since entering the world stage, has been taking on and beating hordes of Kenyans and Ethiopians, including Koech, Bekele, Bekele, Lagat, Merga, etc.

The primary argument people tend to use for Ryun was how he was competitive and dominant on the world stage. I say that he was only dominant because there was so little competition. Beating the Kenyans and Ethiopians even in just DL meets today is a FAR greater accomplishment than even winning an Olympic Gold back in the 1960s.

His times speak for themselves.

However, Ryun was over the hill at an early age. He basically peaked in his early to mid twenties and I believe he was totally retired by age 27. Something to think about when you discuss "what happened to Webb" questions when Webb is 30 yo.

You're on to something, you know. The olympics is what ruined track, with all it's amateurism crap.

What I especially disrespect about the olympics is during all those decades they barred athletes who earned a freaking dime, the IOC itself, officials, governing bodies, sponsors, everybody was exploiting them for profit.

NCAA football is just as bad today. Most of those poor kids will never make a dime as football players, but they make millions for their schools. All they get out of it is a few dozen grand worth of education.

Thanks to the olympics, all elite track athletes today are owned by shoe companies. This slavery is euphemistically called "professional," but they are really just professional billboards. Track is not popular on the local level like it was in the 19th century, there's no money to be made from spectators.

This indirectly led to road racing as the main professional running sport. With road racing, you can collect money from thousands of joggers and give it to the winners, so you don't need people to pay to watch. Though it still depends very heavily on ad sponsors.

Completely wrong about the Kenyans. Maybe 15+yrs ago that may have been true, but all of the top Kenyan runners today have access to first class facilities and training, and furthermore, many of the top young Kenyans identified as having considerable potential have that access as well. And their diet is acutally much better overall than the SAD, which unfortunately, most American runners (even many elites) still utilize.

Make sure your information is current before making unfounded statements.

Americans aren't faster because of the pro aspect. Money is a poor motivator for true runners. They race to fulfill an internal need. Money makes people chase a paycheck instead of fast times.

Seyta wrote:

I am not specifically arguing with Ryun being considered the greatest high school miler of all time (although personally, I don't think he is, because Webb's time was simply better than his)

The basic assumption of your argument is TIME = QUALITY. Your assumption is prejudiced in favor of the present because training, nutrition, tracks, etc. are always improving and so are marks. You have to compare the athlete to the competition/marks OF HIS DAY. It's relative, not objective.

You can't blame Ryun for competition that did not exist in his day. He could only race against whoever showed up at the starting line. Kip Keino would have no problem with the assertion that Ryun was the best high school runner ever, and he beat Ryun badly at the Olympics.

You disrespect runners of the past by downgrading their accomplishments because there were no hordes of Kenyans/Ethiopians competing against them. That's like saying World Cup champions were not real champions before the Brazilians became world powers.

Yes, it's harder now in running but it's very difficult to make it to the top in any era.