Montoya 4:01

Further evidence that Saarel was in sub-4 shape if not 3:57. My theory is Mark Wetmore won't look as good if Saarel was already hyped as a 3:57 guy out of high school so he told him to shut it down.

no, you discuss

crazy raisin wrote:

discuss

What's to discuss? He ran 4:01.

He went out too slow which is too bad. He came through the half in 201. Hard to negative split a sub 4 even if you are capable of running 358. He will do it soon, just needs to get out in 157.

Imrpoved his 800m from 1:52.49 to 1:50.19 this year, in the mile he regressed from 4:01.32 winning an all high school race to 4:01.79 pulled by pros at Pre, in 3200m a 1.18 sec improvement.

So overall, excellent, his times were already great as a junior, the improvement at 800m probably is most important for showing he still has upside, and the mile regression can be written off as the 4:01.32 being a huge outlier performance his junior year.

My theory is that it was aliens who told Saarel to shut it down . . . aliens who speak with a French accent.

crazy raisin wrote:

Further evidence that Saarel was in sub-4 shape if not 3:57. My theory is Mark Wetmore won't look as good if Saarel was already hyped as a 3:57 guy out of high school so he told him to shut it down.

numbler ln e wrote:

no, you discuss

i did. now you

crazy raisin wrote:

Further evidence that Saarel was in sub-4 shape if not 3:57. My theory is Mark Wetmore won't look as good if Saarel was already hyped as a 3:57 guy out of high school so he told him to shut it down.

My theory is that you're a crazy raisin.

montoya had a great season.

unless he overtrains, he's good for 355 next year. no need to sweat the 4 minute mile now.

big M, it is soon time to pack it in.

well....show's running a sub 4 in perfect conditions in high school is not easy...props to those who have!

The only thing to discuss is that nearly 50yrs ago a HS Jim Ryun would have smoked his ass.

crazy raisin wrote:

discuss

Personally, I'm not surprised.

Sub-4 in high school doesn't happen every year. In fact, over the course of something close to 50 years, it's only happened 5 times

The first three were incredible runners for their time.

So incredible that for the next several decades, their feat couldn't be repeated.

Alan Webb, was arguably the best high school miler the US has ever had.

Verzbicas, overall, I would argue, is the best high school distance runner that the US has ever had (realistically, no high schooler can match his prowess over XC and track together...any high schooler who could beat him at one event would lose to him in half a dozen others)

Montoya wasn't a Ryun, Liquori or Danielson type.

He certainly didn't have the raw talent of Webb, and he definitely did not have the strength of Verzbicas.

Personally, I've thought that the entire lot of HS milers have been overhyped (just like they are every year)

If you think about it, there are exceptional HS runners EVERY year who Letsrun posters ALWAYS claim will break 4... and then they don't.

Why on Earth would Arroyo, Montoya, or Saarel be able to do it when runners like Fernandez, Sage, etc. couldn't?

Going as far back as 2000,

-Webb's 3:53 speaks for itself. When he's that far under 4:00, you know he was exceptional.

-Verzbicas was the best to run in the US HS system in decades, and he was exceptional in that his strength and spread were enormous.

You don't see Arroyo, Montoya, and Saarel winning double crowns in FL, winning NXN and FL in the same year, winning triple national indoor crowns, setting national HS records, etc.

In short, the two runners who have broken 4 in the last 2 decades are the current record-holder, and the strongest HS distance runner the US has ever had. Why would any of the runners this year be able to stand on par with them?

G2K wrote:

Montoya wasn't a Ryun, Liquori or Danielson type.

He certainly didn't have the raw talent of Webb, and he definitely did not have the strength of Verzbicas.

Looks close if not better:

Danielson:

1:53.2 880y (converts to about 1:52.5 800m), 3:59.4 mile, 8:55.4 2M

Montoya:

Junior: 1:52.49 800m, 4:01.32 mile, 8:48.25 3200m (converts to about 8:51.45 2M)

Senior: 1:50.19 800m, 4:01.79 mile, 8:47.07 3200m (converts to about 8:50.27 2M)

Saarel:

1:51.14 800m, 4:02.72 mile, 8:45.74 3200m (converts to about 8:48.94 2M)

Seems to me both Saarel and Montoya could have been able to go sub-4 based on their 800m and 3200m but just didn't.

G2K wrote:Verzbicas, overall, I would argue, is the best high school distance runner that the US has ever had (realistically, no high schooler can match his prowess over XC and track together...any high schooler who could beat him at one event would lose to him in half a dozen others)

Gerry Lindgren would have beat Verzbicas in XC and any track race over a mile. You can bet on it.

yesstiles wrote:

Gerry Lindgren would have beat Verzbicas in XC and any track race over a mile. You can bet on it.

Lukas has 5 secs on Lindgren's lifetime best of 8:34 at two miles, and Lukas ran 8:40i just tenths off Lindgren's best two mile in highschool as part of a winning national triple, so I'm thinking you're pretty wrong.

No absolutely agree. Lukas Verzbicas is the greatest distance prep athlete of all time for sure.

inoskodkskdkm wrote:

yesstiles wrote:

Gerry Lindgren would have beat Verzbicas in XC and any track race over a mile. You can bet on it.

Lukas has 5 secs on Lindgren's lifetime best of 8:34 at two miles, and Lukas ran 8:40i just tenths off Lindgren's best two mile in highschool as part of a winning national triple, so I'm thinking you're pretty wrong.

Lindgren only raced 2-miles on 11-lap to a mile indoor wooden tracks or on dirt tracks.

You really don't think Lindgren would have run 8:30 on one of today's modern tracks?

Lindgren also in high school doubled a 13:17 3-mile and a 4:01 mile on a dirt track in the same meet.

Lindgen also beat two current Olympic Champions and WR Holders in a star-studded hilly XC race while in high school.

Agree, Lindgren was an absolute monster. He did things you aren't supposed to. He had an advantage, though, in that he is a huge outlier mentally. His neural networks are not at all normal. You might say he is touched.

Relative to the best in the world at that time, he was in a different league than the current crop of US HS athletes. Webb's 3:53 in HS is the closest we've seen to something being comparable, but that was a one-off performance in a single event.

If kids nowadays ran as much as Lindgren did, there would be a few more doing comparable things to him in HS, but, of course, 99.99+% would break mentally and physically. Gerry seemed to have already been "broken" mentally, and therefore maybe wasn't able to physically break.

Take Saarel, for example. If he was banging out 140 mile weeks as an average, and throwing in some 200 mile weeks, AND STAYED HEALTHY, he would likely be 5 pounds lighter and his aerobic capacity would be several percent higher. Suddenly he's world class in everything from the 1500 up to the 10,000.

People have trouble wrapping their minds around something so simple, but Gerry's mind exploded out into space like a supernova, at which point there is no mind to be wrapped around anything and suddenly "impossible is nothing."