EPO Does Work on Kenyans! Surprise!

trollism wrote:

There isn't a reliable EPO test right now.

The only 'reliable' way of catching EPO cheats, and also those athletes that partake in the odd homologous blood transfusion is the bio-passport.

The bio-passport requires a number of blood tests over a period of time to be effective. Lucky for some nations without NADOs that they have to rely on the IAAF for all their testing, and we all know how motivated they are to bust cheaters in their own sport.

The IAAF started using the biological passport with the expressed purpose of catching more cheats and discouraging the use of PEDs.

If the IAAF's anti-doping efforts were really engineered to not bite the hand that feeds them, Çakir would still be the Olympic champion and Soboleva are her crew would still be a top the 1500m rankings.

The American high school girls record in the 3000m is 9:08.6, from 1975.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_high_school_national_records_in_track_and_fieldThe average start time for the Kenyans in this study was 9:20, and for the Scottish sea-level Caucasians, was 11:08.With the utmost respect for Americans, for high school athletes, and women everywhere, (not to mention Scots) these subjects are orders of magnitude away from elite. The Kenyans would struggle to win an American state girls high school championship, while the Scots would struggle to win an individual in-season meet.A better study would be to prepare all subjects with a clean, advanced training, for an extended period, say 3-5 years. After this time period, select only the best athletes. You might pick a minimum threshold like 8:00 for Caucasians, equivalent to the American boys high school record, and 7:40 for Kenyans. This would largely remove the training component, and this group would be a much closer representation to the elite runners. Does everyone still expect a 5% improvement from EPO? Whatever your belief, there is no published research.I'm also interested in the individual data, and how the 5% average improvement was distributed. Did all subjects improve? Did some respond negatively? Were some indifferent? Was it correlated to ability or training history?

jfdaslj wrote:

http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/study-kenyans-get-performance-boost-from-epo

You say that in cycling "EPO was the game changer". And indeed, everyone in the peloton improved (or retired).But in track, it was only 2 guys who dominated.Are you arguing that in track, it was only a few real dopers, and the rest of track was clean?

just sayin wrote:

if it waren't possible for 2 clean guys to dominate

during the era when there was no test for epo and later when epo could still be used freely

which i know wadn't possible.........

well we know what that means.........

.........the doomsday scenario

they been foolin us

rekrunner

............geb and bekele

............ mig and LA

Jeff Wigand wrote:

The IAAF started using the biological passport with the expressed purpose of catching more cheats and discouraging the use of PEDs.

If the IAAF's anti-doping efforts were really engineered to not bite the hand that feeds them, Çakir would still be the Olympic champion and Soboleva are her crew would still be a top the 1500m rankings.

Nah, they use the bio-passport for the same reason as tennis. As a PR stunt to try to look like they're interested in stamping out doping.

Catching Cakir is a good move PR wise. Given that everyone knew anyway, and the reputation Turkey has, it just looks like the IAAF are picking off the one or two rogue athletes that happen to dope.

They step things up in EA and start a steady stream of busted Kenyans and Ethiopians (which their would be if they were subject to the same testing as other nations) it looks like a serious problem with the sport. Not just one or two dodgy athletes from dodgy nations.

Canova:

"I don't want and don't need to waste my time with "cervellotiche elucubrazioni" (go to translate from Italian, because I don't have the English words for explaining what I mean) about neuroprotection and other pseudo-scientific speculations, only good for confusing people and with no practical consistencies."

I will not let you off the hook that easily.

I merely point out the FACT that such a scientifically-proven physiologic effect is produced under EXACTLY those conditions experienced in elite distance running, and suggest that such an effect could lead to improved athletic performance since it involves a key aspect of the neuromuscular system responsible for human locomotion.

I proposed this as an alternative physiologic mechanism for enhanced performance enabled by EPO, since you were concentrating EXCLUSIVELY on hematocrit and oxygen transport.

If you dismiss this out of hand, you will do nothing other than show that you have a bias in favor of believing that there is no performance benefit.

(And "boubatronic" aka Gallagher, you are a very dull tool)

mig?

So the whole cycling peloton benefits, yet in track, it's only a handful. I'm struggling to see the similarity.

If the graphs aren't indicative of doping, how do they help with targeting testing?

I notice you've ignored the main point - taken over the entire history of athletics, the 25 year period of the graphs does NOT indicate doping, for two reasons:

1. The previous 25 years had larger drops in record times, and;

2. Records and average times have continued to fall despite the introduction of a reliable EPO test and the biological passport.

So, I ask again, what is the point of those graphs?

what records are falling?

just the marathon and short sprints

i notice a backward trend right now and lots of fishy things going on with athletes

looks like the cesspool is being stirred right now

a reliable epo test and the ABP don't eliminate doping

hey printgeezer

renato says he like to meet you in person to discuss your important ideas

lol................just joking

right before i might say why EPO works on cycling it woild be interesting to read what Michele Ferrari says about Hematocrit in Athletes.

This man is the individual that did dope many athllets, some from the cycling but also from the distance run sport. Despite he never cinfessed, we got the confession of several sportsman including Armstrong. Do you yhink that he is silly while doing EPO to the cyclists if doesn´t work ? I don´t

But first read this from his site

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=24

Hematocrit in Athletes - State Of The Art

By: Michele Ferrari

Published: 24 Apr 2003

ps - well could be he wrote this but said something different to HRE (hello you there HRE !)

No, we're not talking about major league sports.

What sense does it make to knock off the most high profile athlete from a country that's investing dollars into the IAAF's series?

There isn't some magical envelope of protection afforded to Kenya and Ethiopia. Testers aren't paid and flown in from South Africa just to flush their samples down the toilet.

And more importantly: who would outside of this board notice any uptick in positive results from Kenya or Ethiopia? I saw a note on espn.com about Çakir after her test came out. A little, tiny note that was up for a few hours. John Ngugi's bust warranted a footnote at the bottom of an otherwise unrelated NY Times article.

There is no protection because no one would of any consequence would notice or care and in fact if East Africa got taken down a peg, Europe and America would stand a better chance of winning middle and long distance medals and would improve the state of the sport in the parts of the world that put money into the IAAF's accounts. If anything, you would expect harder standards on those parts of the world that attract no investments and easier standards where there's money to be made.

Scientific data unless published in a peer reviewed journal should be handled with care. While presentations at conferences are usually up to par, most scientists will know that most of the data presented at such gatherings is preliminary and the finished product rarely looks the same.

While a 5% or whatever increase might be significant , questions abound about

1) What kind of controls were performed?

2) What was the individual response of the subjects?

3) How would talented, in shape world class athletes from both nations respond compared to these mere mortals?

4) Since it was a drug, was there a placebo effect.

5) The most important thing is what kind of statistical analyses were performed, in drug research this is a big thing

When the data is published in peer reviewed journal, please post again and we shall examine the findings together

Drug use exists in Kenya and other places, but, I am willing to say that top Kenyans and Ethiopians who compete each week on the diamond league circuit are more prone to being tested especially if they win than other athletes who show up only at championships.

These two nations have been dominating long distance portion of athletics since they started competing fifty years ago, it is not like they started yesterday. Yes, I know most of the people here are 13 or 14 years old and but, ask your grandparents and they will concur

Explainer to the Morons wrote:

Drug use exists in Kenya and other places, but, I am willing to say that top Kenyans and Ethiopians who compete each week on the diamond league circuit are more prone to being tested especially if they win than other athletes who show up only at championships.

These two nations have been dominating long distance portion of athletics since they started competing fifty years ago, it is not like they started yesterday. Yes, I know most of the people here are 13 or 14 years old and but, ask your grandparents and they will concur

Blah blah blah. Dominating 50 years ago? Gimme a break.

So the fact that the Africans started running crazy fast at around the time EPO came along is just a happy coincidence?

Cyclists started climbing crazy fast at around the same time, and there's no real argument as to why that was nowadays.

It just seems very infantile to not associate the two things. It's blindingly obvious what happened, but you people are either too stupid or just need to not believe that it's true.

Oh, and before anyone else says it. THERE IS STILL NO RELIABLE TEST FOR EPO - why do people keep saying that there is and it's a reason for the drop in the number of people doping?

12 of the top 25 times in the 5,000 have been run since the introduction of the EPO test.

trollism wrote:

So the fact that the Africans started running crazy fast at around the time EPO came along is just a happy coincidence?

How is it that EPO was only available in Africa and not Europe or America?

trollism wrote:

Oh, and before anyone else says it. THERE IS STILL NO RELIABLE TEST FOR EPO - why do people keep saying that there is and it's a reason for the drop in the number of people doping?

I'll be sure to let Martin Fagan know that the next time I see him.

GenericID wrote:

12 of the top 25 times in the 5,000 have been run since the introduction of the EPO test.

Yes, but they have to test them while the needle is still practically hanging out of their ass.

That's what makes the EPO test so unreliable.

Bekele could have his EPO shot whilst he does his 'needs to go back to Ethiopia because he misses family' thing. Be a few days away, and then come back to Europe with no trace of EPO but still with a nice little boost to his hematocrit.

It's easy stuff, particularly when a country doesn't have a NADO and they can just dodge the sporadically visiting IAAF testers.

trollism wrote:

GenericID wrote:

12 of the top 25 times in the 5,000 have been run since the introduction of the EPO test.

Yes, but they have to test them while the needle is still practically hanging out of their ass.

That's what makes the EPO test so unreliable.

Bekele could have his EPO shot whilst he does his 'needs to go back to Ethiopia because he misses family' thing. Be a few days away, and then come back to Europe with no trace of EPO but still with a nice little boost to his hematocrit.

It's easy stuff, particularly when a country doesn't have a NADO and they can just dodge the sporadically visiting IAAF testers.

That's why they test him in Ethiopia. He was tested out of competition in Ethiopia in 2011 as much as anyone else.

Explainer to the Morons wrote:

These two nations have been dominating long distance portion of athletics since they started competing fifty years ago, it is not like they started yesterday. Yes, I know most of the people here are 13 or 14 years old and but, ask your grandparents and they will concur

that´s poor, buddy.

are you willing to accept the fact of fundamental differences existing in the international doping control system? that some runners can live and train without the risk of the latest control standards?

have you ever heard about the fact that really effective doping controls have to take place off season, when the real important work is done?