More Kenyan Doping

How did that work out for Martin Fagan and Galvan-Hunter?

just sayin wrote:

blood passport 2009.......

of course they could use epo when training out of competition

How about you make a cogent argument based on science to refute the points you disagree with? Because as it stands, your position sounds a lot like, "I don't understand it, so I don't buy it."

Canova wrote in a different thread that it was not obvious

that this was better than no EPO and longer rest between

hard efforts. So the answer is again no, EPO only

helps mediocre 2:07 guys.

just sayin wrote:

blood passport 2009.......

of course they could use epo when training out of competition

How many times does a 2nd tier kenyan get tested per year? Maybe twice if it all. Is that enough to draw conclusions from the bio passport chart? I doubt it.

For someone like Makau, Kipsang, Lel, Mutai, it will be a lot harder and I highly doubt we will see WR this year or even 2:04 in London. 2:05 for the win.

Ever wonder why in Dubai 2012, all the no names ran 2:04's?

Exactly how often do you think any 2nd tier road runner is getting tested?

have they done anything spectacular since?

i was replying to posts on epo tests

some people seem to believe you couldn't use it after 2000

Renato Canova wrote:

Renato Canova is here, and doesn't hide himself behind a finger, like the most part of people in Letsrun.

The fact some athlete can use doping doesn't mean this can work for the top runners.

I explained several times that, with the specific attitude and the physiological qualities of the top runners, EPO doesn't give any advantage, and I continue to support this thesis, also if can seem I'm a ignorant or a cheater.

The idea that an athlete could naturally produce blood qualities that Epo could not improve upon strikes me as possible in theory.

Renato Canova wrote:EPO DOESN'T HELP TOP KENYAN ATHLETES.

This seems like a giant and improbably leap of faith to me. Disclaimer: I am a scientist, but not a physiologist and not a coach. So I trust that you know far, far more about this than I do. But you haven't even given any reason for me to believe that an athlete who didn't quite have the ability or work ethic to be a top Kenyan athlete couldn't *become* a top Kenyan athlete with the help of Epo.

If I missed it, could you indulge me and explain why that wouldn't be possible? If it is possible, particularly in light of recently confirmed allegations about Kenyan drug use by athletes who would be considered quite elite by American standards, I think it's unlikely that all top Kenyan athletes are drug-free.

It wouldn't surprise me at all, however, if drug use is less common among top Kenyan athletes than it is among top Americans.

And whether you are right or wrong about this speculation, I continue to rate you as the single most informative coach on the internet.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

it will be interesting to see who is correct. we will know

5-10 years down the road. Exciting times! stay tuned.

that other guy wrote:

Ever wonder why in Dubai 2012, all the no names ran 2:04's?

There were four men under 2:05 at Dubai in 2012:

Ayele Abshero was the 2009 World Junior Cross Country Champion and had run 59:21 for half marathon the year prior.

Dino Sefer was a little less well known, but won a half marathon in France in 59:42 in 2011.

Markos Geneti has had a long international career, mostly at 3000m and 5000m, before winning the Los Angeles Marathon in a course record 2:06:35 in 2011.

Jonathan Maiyo had two sub-1hr half marathons to his credit before 2012, including a 59:08 run at the Rotterdam half marathon in 2009.

Also in Dubai's favour: I believe it is easily the fastest marathon course in the world today and they offer huge amounts of prize money, free from taxation, and not a penny of appearance money.

Number of marks in the top ten men's marks of all time in the past five years:

1500 meters - zero

3000 meters - zero

5000 meters - one

10,000 meters - zero

Marathon - nine (with 25 of top 26 marks achieved in last 5 years)

That has got to tell us a few things.

namely the flux of talent away from the track and to the roads. why? $$$$$

lost in Boston wrote:

Number of marks in the top ten men's marks of all time in the past five years:

1500 meters - zero

3000 meters - zero

5000 meters - one

10,000 meters - zero

Marathon - nine (with 25 of top 26 marks achieved in last 5 years)

That has got to tell us a few things.

Yeah, it tells us that the marathon is finally approaching parity with track events. I don't think 2:04 is intrinsically better than 12:45-12:50 5ks, which guys still run on the rare occasion that they run an evenly paced 5k.

yyy wrote:

namely the flux of talent away from the track and to the roads. why? $$$$$

The best track runners do not go to the marathon for a good reason - and it is also money. If you are the best on the track you make a pile of money.

Do you think these 2.04 marathoners - most of whom do not win the major marathons - could win the 1500 or the 5000 or the 10,000? Of course not.

The fact is, the dopers are a bit more reticent than they were in the 90's and early to mid 2000s. Things are getting a little tighter. The Olympics showed that. (With the glaring exception of the US women sprinters. Puhleazze.)

The 2:04 marathoners would have been 2nd tier track people and so they make much more money becoming 1-5 in big city marathon. So it is $$$$.

Come one dude, most top Kenyan runners are attracted by the money in marathon. You can trace the increased prizes in marathon with the improved performances

lost in Boston wrote:

Number of marks in the top ten men's marks of all time in the past five years:

1500 meters - zero

3000 meters - zero

5000 meters - one

10,000 meters - zero

Marathon - nine (with 25 of top 26 marks achieved in last 5 years)

That has got to tell us a few things.

Why hasn't the supposed money influx on the roads affected the Americans the same way? It certainly hasn't deterred Ritz from the 10000.

last time I checked, Ritz is not a second-tier American and he is also running marathons.

Ho Hum wrote:

lost in Boston wrote:

Number of marks in the top ten men's marks of all time in the past five years:

1500 meters - zero

3000 meters - zero

5000 meters - one

10,000 meters - zero

Marathon - nine (with 25 of top 26 marks achieved in last 5 years)

That has got to tell us a few things.

Yeah, it tells us that the marathon is finally approaching parity with track events. I don't think 2:04 is intrinsically better than 12:45-12:50 5ks, which guys still run on the rare occasion that they run an evenly paced 5k.

People will focus efforts where money is made. The time trial marathons have changed the meaning of times. Now the 2:04 gets these guys appearance fees and.a shot at WMM. For what it is worth, the Dubai 2012 heros blew up in the Olympics. ETH may have been better of with marsthon racers.

Also, those who are willing to cheat also focus more on where money is made. All top countries have runners who dope, including the US. Kenya and Ethiopia need to address their issues.

I can't understand RCs arguments. It seems unlikely to be valid and it is very hard to tell when someone meets his definition of top athlete. It see,s like the problem is eliminated by definition.