Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder

Justin91 wrote:

Promoe wrote:

All I see on here is a bunch of haters. I run Ultras because I choose to do so, not because I'm not competitive in anything else. I run mid 15's in the 5k and sub 2 in the 800. I could very easily win 5ks and 10ks, but Ultras are what I enjoy. Those people on here who ridicule ultrarunners get beat by them in road races all the time... they just don't know it :)

The only haters here are the ultra runners. I think ultra running is great, and that running hilly trails is a lot more fun than running on a dirty path in the park. Same reason I prefer mountain biking to road biking. Just don't be delusional and argue that a 2:16 guy can't smoke elite ultra runners.

Ok, would a cycling champ at the tour de france beat a few mountain bikers. Landis tried....didn't win, same analogy?

What, are you crazy, or just trolling?

bjofro wrote:

Mods/brojos, it's time to get rid of this thread.

Karl, you know stomach issues can be a factor in these very long races. If the pros start showing up with teams, putting saline/glucose/electrolite drips in their star at the aid stations, is that legal or an unfair advantage?

Speedgoatkarl wrote:

The only haters here are the ultra runners. I think ultra running is great, and that running hilly trails is a lot more fun than running on a dirty path in the park. Same reason I prefer mountain biking to road biking. Just don't be delusional and argue that a 2:16 guy can't smoke elite ultra runners.

Ok, would a cycling champ at the tour de france beat a few mountain bikers. Landis tried....didn't win, same analogy?[/quote]

This has little to do with the intrinsic nature of the disciplines and everything to do with the size of the talent pool. Mountain biking is hugely popular, to the point where it is a significant feeder system for road biking. If trail running ever gets that kind of talent pool, then C list roadies won't be able to beat trail runners. That day hasn't arrived.

It is amazing the lengths that ultra will go to in order to avoid saying the words "A C list roadie can beat the top ultras".

30 pounds from race weight wrote:

Any news on World Class Race walking?

This guy WAS a 2:16 marathoner that knew he could never get much better running in events that the competitive runners care about so he went to the "who cares?" events. There are roughly 75 Americans that are currently competing in real events that would kill Sage in an Ultra without even training for it.

We would all be sprinters if we were fast enough

Speedgoatkarl wrote:

Ok, would a cycling champ at the tour de france beat a few mountain bikers. Landis tried....didn't win, same analogy?

So look what happened at Leadville when tour riders started entering and how dramatically the times came down. LA won and set a course record on a flat tire, and he wasn't in nearly the shape as in his tour years.

Leipheimer smashed the course record in his first mountain bike race ever. The same thing would happen to ultra records if 2:05 runners started entering.

sdadas wrote:

That's not the real Speedgoat Karl...the real SG Karl is humble.

Are you serious, or a ultrarunning fanboi?

The funny part is that it's an exact example of "SGK" (humblebragging his own accomplishments) but you don't believe it.

*

Not that Karl's not a great runner, and I think he genuinely would enjoy seeing what some of the faster roadrunners would do. I disagree with the idea that "stepping up" to 100M is "better" in any way, people should do what they want to do. But he's right, there is like $10K up for grabs in Run Rabbit Run and more at the UROC races that more guys should be going for (makes more financial sense than Western States).

So look what happened at Leadville when tour riders started entering and how dramatically the times came down. LA won and set a course record on a flat tire, and he wasn't in nearly the shape as in his tour years.

Leipheimer smashed the course record in his first mountain bike race ever. The same thing would happen to ultra records if 2:05 runners started entering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadville_Trail_100_MTB

LA won Leadville in 2009, the same year he came in 3rd at the tour. Also, the distance and time of a 100 mile mountain bike race is not an issue at all for a tour rider. The comparison is more apt to describe what would happen if a bunch of 2:05 guys started entering trail 30K-50K races. Yes, they'd crush. 100 miles running is more like a 400 mile mountain bike race. Things might start to change.

Justin91 wrote:

It is amazing the lengths that ultra will go to in order to avoid saying the words "A C list roadie can beat the top ultras".

I don't think anyone is unwilling to say this. We already see this with flat ultras like JFK and Comrades. Even the elite mountain ultra runners are already saying that the faster roadies (Sage/Max) have a big advantage on the flatter terrain ultras because of their high-end speed. I think most of us in the ultra world WANT to see the fast guys come off the roads and run ultras, because it would be exciting for the sport.

But when you get to the technical mountain ultras, then high-end speed doesn't mean nearly as much (it certainly means something, but not everything). I think this is the point that the mountain guys are trying to pound into the head of the roadies.

I bet someday there will be a 2:0x guy or two who can make the transition and smash a lot of the mountain records, but that will be because they are fast AND because they have the mountain skills, not just because they are fast on the road. Not all fast roadies have the skill-set to compete with 2:30-2:4x guys all day in the mountains (as has been proven at every mountain 100 to-date). I think Speedgoat's challenge to 'prove it!' is not because he doesn't think it's possible, but because it really would be good for the sport to get faster talent attempting the mountains.

It will be interesting to see how Sage does at Speedgoat this year. Max placed third last year, but even Tony (a 2:42 guy) kept up with Max. The mountains really can be an equalizer.

FunBuns wrote:

I don't think anyone is unwilling to say this. We already see this with flat ultras like JFK and Comrades. Even the elite mountain ultra runners are already saying that the faster roadies (Sage/Max) have a big advantage on the flatter terrain ultras because of their high-end speed. I think most of us in the ultra world WANT to see the fast guys come off the roads and run ultras, because it would be exciting for the sport.

Yup, yup.

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle:

1. Some fast roadies would do very well in longer ultras

2. But not all

3. The talent pool in ultras is much thinner than in road racing

4. But it's getting better

5. Some ultra course-records are quite soft and will fall with increased competition

6. Soft ultra competition means guys can be gobs of minutes (or an hour or more) behind and still place decently, and race multiple races per year.

7. Increased competition would reduce this and some guys wouldn't be able to hang, but guys would also have to focus/periodize

8. But some classic trail/ultra guys would still do quite well, and be able to shut up undue criticism

Another question Karl, owing to the strange course problems last fall at RunRabbitRun (e.g., confusing markings, folks getting lost in the middle of the night going way off course, the course being ~10 miles longer than advertised, etc., etc.) that were experienced by a fair number of runners, what do you think about the idea of having at least all podium finishers and money winners verify with GPS that they didn't "KIP" the course? That should be fairly easy to do in this day and age. Maybe partnering up with a company like Strava would allow folks to follow the runners online in real time?! It makes a lot of sense for the very long races that are paying out money and drawing pros that have a lot invested in the race outcome, no?

Sciatica Road wrote:

Karl, you know stomach issues can be a factor in these very long races. If the pros start showing up with teams, putting saline/glucose/electrolite drips in their star at the aid stations, is that legal or an unfair advantage?

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Okay, I'll bite. I've been following this thread for awhile now and i think it is actually a pretty healthy discussion. I'm glad the mods haven't taken it down. Side note: the founder of this site, Rojo was also my college coach btw and until about 2 years ago I was pretty much on here everyday.

However, the first 2 sentences of the above quote was totally out-of-line. Shame on you if you're a "fellow" ultra runner!

There seems to be a lot of "us" vs "them" attitudes and egos here. As someone who has seen some of both sides of the track/road and ultra/trail/mountain worlds it is surprising how there is such a disconnect. To me it's all just running (although of course i haven't done any 100milers or crazy steep/technical ultras which would require powerhiking/climbing..). I've raced a bit from 400m up to 100km and these all hurt. Sure the pain is different, but if one pushes themselves to the limit and fights the good fight then that should be respected.

Sure, aerobic fitness and Vo2max and Lactate Threshold help with Ultra-Trail-Mountain running (and yes there is even a disconnect between those 3 events...I've learned), but fat burning and glycogen storage come into play. As the distance increases the unknowns factor in more and more (ie getting dehydrated or even getting lost and running off course). That being said I've also learned that the race should not be defined by the mere distance as the elevation change, the terrain, the course markings, the number of aid stations and the weather can have a huge impact on the outcome of what looks to be a straightforward race on paper.

For example, take the Mt. Washington hill climb. It is only 7.6 miles long. Going into that race I had no idea what to expect. Running uphill (even on a smooth road) at 12% incline is a very specific task. I have no doubt that Max King has a waaay higher Vo2max than I do (heck he can run a 3k steeple almost as fast as my flat 3k)...but his best there is 1:02. For some reason (probably biomechanically as I am bad at downhill running.. that grade seems to work well for my body and I can be efficient on that slope). Several fairly fast road and track runners have no run up to their expectations on that hill..it is a climbing race.

So we can take that concept of % grade on the hills and see how it is hard to predict. Now look at variables like how the terrain is (ie steps, rocks, mud, grass, etc), but also when the hills take place in the race and how long they each are.

Bottom line. You have to be mentally tough and push yourself in any race distance. I grew up in the backwoods of Oregon running in the forest and so of course I enjoy trail running and mountains/scenery (i think it is basic human nature to enjoy the outdoors and running with a good view). But I also enjoy road racing marathons and value and respect the raw speed of the track. I'm in a position right now (mostly just due to my age) where I can still relate to the college cross country/track scene, the road racing scene and the ultra scene as i meet people who are invovled in all these aspects of running.

Best of luck with your training and racing,

Sage

Out of curiosity, whatever happened to that relatively fast marathoner/skyrunner/ultra guy from NZ a few years back? Thought he was going to be The Big Guy, but haven't heard of him in a few years.....

sockler wrote:

No one has brought up Michael Aish yet? He won his first ultra (Leadville 50), but missed the course record which is held by a ~17:00 5k guy.

Then tried to stay near the front group at the Leadville 100 and DNF'd. The front group was averaging ~10:00 miles.

S. Canaday wrote:

However, the first 2 sentences of the above quote was totally out-of-line.

Sage, you and I have engaged in some healthy banter on here before, so I'd love to hear from you as to why the first two sentences I typed were out of line. I was, as you put it so well, trying to point out the us vs them attitude that seems to be prevalent on this site. I thought I stated that eloquently in my last couple of sentences.

Bang wrote:

Not to beat a dead horse over here but, what makes Killian's 5'7" - 120 lb frame so "physiologically" adept to ultras rather than elite marathoner's frames? Nothing, right? They are the same.

108 of Kilian's 120 lbs are in his quads tho

Personally, I think it is great to see more fast road/track guys moving into ultra, trail, and mountain racing. Max King was one of the first to make a big splash on the scene several years back and he has basically owned the shorter trails domestically up to 50mi and even 100K (UROC 2012).

In 2012, Sage Canaday quickly elevated himself to the top ranks, at least on the less technical/lower elevation courses up to 100k. Trent Briney also made a splash in 2012 at JFK50mi and if the rumors are true, he will look to move up in distance to 100mi at Western States this year.

Another road/track guy to look out for in 2013 and beyond will be Ryan Bak. According to his website (ryanbakrunning.com), he is transitioning to the mountain/trail/ultra world for the next couple of years before going back to the road marathon. I see that he is now running for SCOTT Sports along with Sage and I am excited to watch what he can do on the trails. He debuted in the marathon at 2:14 in 2011 and had run decently fast on the track in the years before that, so it will be interesting to see what he can do.

Hopefully more guys like this will begin to compete in trail and ultra races. They are helping to elevate the level and depth of competition in a sport that is slowly beginning to get more publicity and financial support. As an ultra runner, I look at this as a positive thing and I hope for added professionalism to come along with it.

Any word on how speedgoat karl is doing in the buffalo 100 that is going on right now?

They'd only be like 2 hours in. Plenty of time and miles to go :)