Mr Realistic wrote:
That is far different than running up and down steep technical trail where you have to pay attention to every single step you take so as not to take a hard fall. .
This is otherwise known as hiking.
Mr Realistic wrote:
That is far different than running up and down steep technical trail where you have to pay attention to every single step you take so as not to take a hard fall. .
This is otherwise known as hiking.
I don't understand the crush that some people on this site/board have for Sage. Like he is holding the key to some sort of wet dream where you will be proven that ultrarunners aren't real runners. Like he is the great hope and rather than you try, you live vicariously thru him as if he is the answer to the your internal struggle to justify why you do what you do. The one where Sage wins a big ultra and shows once and for all that if the elite road runners were to focus on the ultras they would dominate.
Until they do, this thread and all related ones are pointless. No one knows how they would fare in a 100, whether technical or not. A road runner is different than a mountain runner. A road 100 runs completely different than a trail 100. A trail 100 runs different depending on the location, terrain, etc. There is no correlation or evidence that a 2:05 marathoner would do better than a 3:00 marathon over 100 miles. NONE. A lot more aspects come in to play from hydration and nutrition to blisters, stomach issues, the mental aspect, the distance, etc. Sometimes you'll have these issues, other times you won't. You just don't know how your body is going to react to the distance and pounding. Some guys like Karl and Killian (and many others) seem to get faster as the race goes on.
Different strokes for different folks. Some people like to run fast. Some people like to run slow. Some people enjoy sprints, some distances. Why some people have such a hard time comprehending this is beyond me. The constant justification on this site of which is a real runner is dumb, honestly. 98% of runners out there respect those who do what they can't. I can't run a 30 minute 10k, but am in awe of people who can. Same with sub 10 second sprinters, people who run 16 hour 100's, etc. I've had 10k runners marvel that I can (or try to) run 100 milers.
He's a good guy with a hot girlfriend so what's with all of the hatin' here?
Very Slow Guy wrote:
I think it's inevitable that Karl will get his wish if some of these young fast guys follow the lead of Canaday, Max King, Wardian, etc. There will be carnage, much to Karl's delight, but as the learning curve improves, I'd put my money on the road guys. Ryan Hall grew up at 7,000 feet and runs sub 2:06 marathons. I suspect he's run on a few trails around Big Bear Lake. If he abandoned road racing today and devoted the rest of his career to running technical trails at elevation, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't be successful at any ultra distance. It's fun to speculate but we really won't know until some of these road guys start racing Hardrock, Leadville or whatever.
It's interesting with Ryan Hall, he has the talent to run a 2:06, so he's in he mix to win marathons. And with his amazing long stride the roads are perfect for him. Put him on a technical trail, and he'll slow way down. He won't be breathing hard, but his technical skills will have to improve. He mentioned at one time he wanted to chase the Grand Canyon Double cross record, set at 6:53. That's very fast with 11k of climb and generally all technical terrain. What's real cool is that us ultrarunners are happy to give advice to a fast road marathoner on how to improve on trails, but "some", or "most" of the road runners commenting here, have too big of a head to understand that an ultra is different, especially when there is tens of thousands of vertical gained. At Boston they talk of Heartbreak Hill. Really? what's the vert on that, 100'? :-) And yes, this is Karl Meltzer...a.k.a. Speedgoat...or "slowgoat" on the roads... :-)
Karl, it's nice to chat with you here; much respect!
What do you think about the potential for drugs to have impact in the mountain 100 milers? I would think psychological factors, obviously different from those in say, a half-marathon, impact performance. Is there something telling that one of your sponsors sells 'liquid-speed' (red-bull)? I don't mean this in a critical, accusatory way. I appreciate your candor. (I just had a cup-of-joe, myself).
Speedgoatkarl wrote:
At Boston they talk of Heartbreak Hill. Really? what's the vert on that, 100'? :-)
B-b-b-but Karl, that is 100 feet in four tenths of a mile!!! That's like a while 250 feet in a mile!! How on earth do you expect us to do that at mile 21? Why would you do that!?!? That is just cruel :)
Bahahaha, you're funny kid.
Over 62 miles in the hills? Those little string beans? Doubt it.
Killian Jornet just got written up in the New York Times yesterday.
Remind me again how marathoners and track are the only things that matter?
BAHAHAHA
MeHereYouWhere?! wrote:
I don't understand the crush that some people on this site/board have for Sage. Like he is holding the key to some sort of wet dream where you will be proven that ultrarunners aren't real runners. Like he is the great hope and rather than you try, you live vicariously thru him as if he is the answer to the your internal struggle to justify why you do what you do.
It is very simple, but I'll explain.
1. No one here thinks they can run faster than elite ultra runners, even in short events like 5k's.
2. Few people here think they have the muscular endurance to run a 100 mile race or even a 100k.
3. What people do believe, and they are correct in this, is that the talent pool for ultra running is much smaller than the talent pool for ultra running, and thus, "C list" road runners can beat the elite ultra runners.
4. But for some strange reason, ultra runners cannot accept point #3.
5. So we spend countless hours of fruitless but enjoyable debate trying to pound point #3 into the heads of the ultra runners.
I was under the impression that walking is part of ultra's?
I've always gotten a chuckle about the roadies talking about Heartbreak Hill like they're climbing a mountain pass up in the Rockies or Cascades.
Somewhat relevant to this thread is that Trent Briney made a good ultra debut in November, closing on and ultimately finishing 2nd to Max King at JFK 50 (3min behind, under old CR). He took his spot in Western States this June and apparently was going to put significant focus on that race. How do you think he'll do?
Interview after JFK 50 -
http://www.irunfar.com/2012/11/trent-briney-2012-jfk-50-mile-second-place-man-interview.html
It has come to my attention that this thread has blown out of proportion and irritated a lot of people on both sides of the fence. To make it clear, here is what I was thinking when I started the thread:
1. Aerobically, Sage is probably more fit than most ultrarunners other than Kilian and Matt Carpenter. Because of this, he can build up a sizable lead, blow up, and still win. This thread was meant as a compliment for Sage, not as a knock.
2. Mountainous ultrarunning is a very different exercise than road marathoning. I do not suspect that Sage would win Hardrock his first time out, but I do think that, given a year or two of training for it and running 2-3 other 100s to prep, he could not only win, but also take down Skaggs' record. Yes, it is a very stout record, but running well on any course is easier when aerobic fitness is better.
3. Tim Olson is a great ultrarunner and probably a great person as well. His comments about Sage in a 100 miler weren't cool though. I don't suspect that he meant anything by them, but it's important to think about how you come across when you say things like this.
4. I respect ultrarunning. I do not think it is a lesser endeavor than road running. However, it is undeniable that it is less competitive. I believe that, if similar prize money were to be given out in the top 100s as in marathon majors, nobody currently winning these races would win within a year or two. Top runners go where the money is and the increased fitness of 2:05 marathoners is simply too much to handle. Kenyan marathoners are better altitude/trail/mileage trained over their lives than virtually any ultrarunner other than Anton Krupicka or Kilian, and 2:05 guys have a lot more fitness than anyone on the American ultra scene, so it's stupid to suggest that they couldn't dominate trail 100s pretty quickly.
5. 100 milers have a very steep learning curve, so it would take a season or two of specific training for even top Kenyans to win races like Hardrock, but they would do it. Take Matt Carpenter. In his first 100, he blew up insanely badly, but the next year, he ran what is potentially the most impressive trail 100 ever run. Karl, I have a lot of respect for what you do, but a 25 year old Kenyan that has no problem running 150mpw is going to run really well at Hardrock once he trains specifically for a period of time.
Sorry for any irritation - the title of the thread was kind of intended as an attention grabber, but it wasn't supposed to be an insult to anyone (including Tim Olson, who was only mentioned to show the magnitude of the field that Sage beat).
1. No one here thinks they can run faster than elite ultra runners, even in short events like 5k's.
2. Few people here think they have the muscular endurance to run a 100 mile race or even a 100k.
3. What people do believe, and they are correct in this, is that the talent pool for ultra running is much smaller than the talent pool for ultra running, and thus, "C list" road runners can beat the elite ultra runners.
4. But for some strange reason, ultra runners cannot accept point #3.
5. So we spend countless hours of fruitless but enjoyable debate trying to pound point #3 into the heads of the ultra runners.[/quote]
I have the feeling that most of you in this forum don't run ultras road or trail.
"C list" road runners can beat the elite ultra runners.I actually like to see that first before I believe it. Road ultras and Trail ultras are a total different thing. I have done road ultras for over 20 years and saw only once a 2:13h marathoner winning the very first Germany Championships for 100k. That was his only 100k race ever. Alberto Salazar won once the Comrades. Both were Marathon runners running a road ultra. With trail ultras I doubt that will happen. All the Ryan Halls in the world who run sub 2:10 Marathons will be worn out after their Marathon career. And I like to see a Ryan Hall at Hardrock. He probably will be done after the first river crossing at mile 3. Trailrunning is a total different game. But bring them on. We, the ultrarunners like to see that.
Roadies are stillyet to win in the mountains. Ultrarunning has really become a trail running thing, not a road thing, so if you look at Mt races such as the Wasatch 100, Leadville, Hardrock, and many other mountain 100s, we don't see any roadies winning those. They try, and go out too fast in general, and end up blowing up.
If some fast road runners want to challenge solid mountain runners and run for some decent cash, come kick my as at Run Rabbit Run 100. I can assure you the grades aren't too steep for you, and the trails are not really technical. Even though it's doubtful any fast roadies are reading this, pass the word on. Please show me how fast a "C list" road runner can beat me at 100 miles at altitude.
And on another comment, Trent Briney, yes, he's gonna focus on Western, good, he'll be a good guinea pig to chase down once we get to Foresthill. (no offense Trent if you read this, it'll be great to have you there) I just like getting these folks all fired up. 10,000 to win at Run Rabbit Run, c'mon, show up. :-)
Karl, I'm going to put you on the spot, because I'm curious for your opinion. How do you think Sage would fare at Western States or RRR? What do you think about the fact that he recently stated that he's going to wait a little while longer before he does his first 100?
Comments to 2.
Obviously you have not been on the Hardrock course, otherwise you wouldn't have made this statement.
4.
I actually agree that ultra running on roads or trails has less competitiveness than Marathon running. Main reason: Less people are doing it and there is almost no Money involved.
5. Matt Carpenter ran Leadville only twice and he is actually a very good trail runner winning the Peaks Peak Marathon a lot of times. But for the most part he is not an ultra runner.
The African runners are running Marathons to get away from poverty and there wouldn't sign up for Hardrock 100 just because there is no money to win. Would they have a chance, maybe, maybe not, probably we will never know. But I would doubt it. A 2:05 marathon is not a 24-48 hour trip around the San Juan Mountains.
Leadville... Matt Carpenter and Timmy Parr? Yeah, both had trail credentials, but Parr started as a 2:25 guy and Carpenter started more on roads and only started ultrarunning the year before his crushing time at Leadville.
Hardrock and Wasatch probably do scare off the road guys because they are super gnarly courses. Running 100 miles in 12 hours on a track is a hell of a lot different than running 100 miles up and down mountains in 20+ hours. Do you think that a 2:05 guy couldn't train with specificity and then win them? Obviously they need specific training, but do you think there is something specific that you have that a 2:05 guy couldn't develop in addition to his insane fitness?