spring sub 18 5k training

Solid, classic week! Nice one.

In terms of critique, the main thing I noticed was the speed of the 600s, which you should be able to do at your 5k pace or faster (

cool, thanks. yeah, i did the same workout of 600s last week and averaged 2:12s, but who knows...

If your tempo pace is really 6:3x, then 7:20-7:30 is way too fast for an "easy" day. For example, my tempo pace for 5k is 5:40-5:50 and I still take easy days at 7:10-7:20 or so. (16:37 5k PR) Take easy days easy. No need to kill yourself. Will make the workout days higher quality. (for example, getting those 600s at least to race pace)

I always advocate throwing long hills in there for strength. Also, don't make speed work the priority at the moment if you are hoping to peak late spring, but throw in some easy speed on easier days.

For example:

5-6 X stride

4-5 X 200 (~105% Race Pace)

4 X 60m steep hill sprints

4 X flying 60s

Any of that shouldn't wear you out. Take as much rest as needed between them. Tag them on after an easy run.

Easy Pace can vary quite a bit with the weather or other variables so maybe 7:20 was good for that day.

I would suggest to ditch the Garmin every once in a while though. That week was quite specific. I'm not as much an expert as most here, so I'll mostly just add nice work.

this is for a HS JR female I'm coaching who wants to be sub 18:30 XC in November (19:50 this past Nov)

Sunday - off. due to mild PF pain

Monday - 50 min. at moderate effort, prob 7:30ish pace, after thorough warm-up with a couple strides

Tuesday - 75 min hill trail run, easy

Wednesday - 45 min. at prob 7:20-7:30 pace, after warm-up/strides. Felt like crap

Thursday - 90 min hilly trail run, easy

Friday - 3 x 200 @ 110% of mile pace after thorough WU. Cut short a tempo run - only did a mile or so at 7:15ish pace

Saturday - 1 hr 45 min. hilly run, moderate effort, prob 8:00-8:15ish pace

41+- total

For a single week, that looks great.

My main suggestion (not sure if you're doing this or not) would be to not repeat that week over and over again (or the workouts, at least). By that I mean I would incorporate some 10k pace stuff as well as maybe some 1 hr pace stuff and instead of devoting a whole workout to 600s I'd just add a few 3-400s on to the end of a tempo or threshold workout. I'd also try increasing that tempo a bit, out to 4-5 miles between half and marathon pace, or even cutting down from mp to hmp.

Maybe a two week cycle of 10k pace repeats, marathon pace longer tempo, 1 hour pace shorter tempo or something like mile repeats, 1-2k worth of 3k-5k pace repeats added on to one of the above workouts, and a progressive long run like you've done.

Otherwise I think that at this point that staying consistent with that and being patient should see some good results.

Nice job and keep up the good work.

Sunday January 27 - 6 miles easy 6:51 pace

Monday - off - work + class goes from 7am-10pm

Tuesday- off - 35 degrees and pouring rain!

Wednesday - 1 mile up + 4 x mile repeats at 6:10, 6:04, 6:09, 6:08. Windy as hell, and did this workout on a road loop. + 2 miles cooldown.

Thursday - 30mph winds, and 15 degrees. Said F it! 0 miles.

Friday - Tempo run - 1 mile up + 3 @ 6:35, 6:34, 6:09 with 2:51 last half mile (was on the roads again). + 1 mile cooldown

Saturday - 6.5 easy ~48.5 minutes.

Total mileage = 24.5

-----------------------------------------

Sunday Feb 3 - 15 miles. First 11 at 8:15 pace with last 4 in 6:59, 6:15, 6:59, and 6:45.

wind and bad weather was the name of the game last week :(

bangalangadanga what is your current 5k PR? At 19:19 I would really struggle with those workouts especially the tempo, I can realistically do more like 6:45-6:50 for 4 miles at anything less than maximal effort; and I can handle mile repeats at 6:10-15 for a set of 4x1.

**forgot to add the rest for those 4 x mile repeats.

the rest was standing around and 3:00 minutes.

my current 5k pr is 15:59 on a 2.75 mile course ;) from summer of 2012, and 18:10 from 2006. I'm 26 years old male.

That rest makes the whole workout far less useful than it should have been.

Keep moving. Max of two minutes. You should be shooting for 400m or so in that two minutes. Over time start dropping that recovery to 90s (150m) then 60s (100m).

What good does it do you to blaze all these fast miles if you can't string 3x together?

Besides, what is that, 10k-threshold pace? Why the rest?

I'd also suggest that 4x 1mile is too much for your level. I'd limit that to 5x1k or maybe 4x1500 max. 4x1200 might be a good sweet spot for a repeatable 10k-thr type workout with actual decent recoveries (one minute for those paces).

More information on what your planned periodization would be great to be able to help you out. Goal mileage your shooting for etc. Do you have a track or just road as an option for workouts? Any hills? Peaking racing time looking to run under 18?

op-ed,

I don't know where you're getting your '2-minute max' idea, but I'm basing my 3 minutes of rest of 6 minutes hard effort from a number of posts here at LRC (using the search function) on the 4 x mile workout. Significant literature I've read suggests a 50% recovery time per running time. Also, this was just what a friend was doing that particular night, so that is what I jumped into.

I know that for Daniels, he does not recommend going more than 5 minutes at V02 max"ish" effort (which is what those 6:05s ended up feeling like in the wind, hills, and undulations of the road etc). So, yes, you are right that 1200s would be a sweet spot for rep work.

I did the mile reps again on Tuesday, and I will do them again next Tuesday. I'm a big believer in keeping things constant for 3 weeks before changing so that I can note increases in fitness or staleness onset.

After that, the staple workout will be 5 - 6 x 1200 in ~4:25 with 400 jog recovery.

To the other poster,

-------------------------

For the most part, I do my rep work and tempo work on a track. I did do last week's 4 x mile on the roads because that is what my friends were doing.

I will preview by saying that on Tuesday, I did 4 x mile with 3:00 recovery in 5:50 (2:56, 2:54); 5:49 (2:56, 2:53); 5:50 (2:55, 2:55), and 5:54 (3:04, 2:50).

I never really go into rep work with a specific goal other than to RUN WITHIN MYSELF and to gradually pick up the effort until my last few reps are JUST SHY of being a maximal effort.

I see. 50% recovery time could be applicable to the pace you're running (shorter reps at faster speeds). But when you're doing workouts at that pace (again, slower than 10k?), what are you training to do?

2 min max ensures that you're not overrunning the intervals and it keeps it more specific for the event itself. Once you're running over 5 mins for an effort then you're almost assuredly doing them at a pace of 10k+ so keeping the rests shorter keeps it specific. 3 mins is just wasting time because you're spending 1/5-1/4 of the effort just getting back up to appropriate intensity.

Plus just standing around is really pointless and not helping at all.

A tempo pace (which that seems to be based on your time) could be run steady through. Breaking it up into intervals would necessitate a shortening of the rest, maybe a 1 min or a max or 90s.

VO2 max pace would be around 3k pace for you so if you have a recent "5k (short?)" effort of around 5:48 pace then 6:05 is no where near VO2max pace. If you're feeling that bad that you think it is then you'd be better off scrapping the workout completely.

Here's my suggestion. First don't do the same workout every week. You may feel its good but its better to change it up and come back to that workout two weeks later. You don't want to be focusing on the same workout week after week and then one week you don't improve and the depression sets in. I like the idea of jumping in with friends to do a workout. Always good to mix it up. I coach and still run and end up doing all my training alone but its nice to jump into the local club workout every once in awhile.

Suggested week:

Mon 8 miles

Tuesday 3 w/u, 6x1200 at 5k pace but get that rest down to 2:00 of jogging recovery not standing around like a sprinter!, 3 w/d. Pick a different workout every other week. I like to alternate with workouts that mix the pace. Makes you a better racer!

Wed 8 miles

Thur 3 w/u, 4 mile tempo run, 3 w/d. 3 miles isn't long enough. Could work up to 5 miles. Can alternate with 4-5xmile at threshold pace with 1:00 rest.

Friday 4 miles recovery

Sat Run to a Hill and do 200-300m hill repeats totaling 2 miles of running up hill and cooldown

Sun 12 miles. You don't need to go longer than that for the amount of mileage your doing or event.

op-ed, thanks for your comments.

I guess it was just assumed that I am not in the same shape I was in over the summer. Also, The workout where I averaged 6:05s was on an extremely windy and cold evening. Obviously, this handicapped the times to some degree.

citius5000,

yep, it is easy to want to do the same workout over and over again in order to monitor improvement, but from a scientific standpoint, I like to have the variables controlled as much as possible. It's really the effort that stays the same as I'm not trying to hit a particular split.

However, I do hear you that I could easily become depressed if I were to go into a session I had been doing and get my butt handed to me. I think I'll try 5 x 1200 next week with a 400 jog.

*Also op ed and citius, I think it is important to remember that there are benefits to long, short, standing, and jogging recoveries.

I found doing 45-50 mile weeks over the summer really helped me break 18 for xc

Feb 3, 2013 - Feb 16, 2013

Sunday - 15 miles with some friends. Averaged 8:15s for the first 11. Broke off from them at 11.5 and ran 6:59, 6:15, 6:59, 6:46.

Monday - off

Tuesday - 4 x mile with 3 minutes standing recovery.

5:50 (2:56, 2:54), 5:49 (2:56, 2:53), 5:50 (2:55, 2:55), and 5:54 (3:04, 2:50)

Wednesday - easy 5 miles. no watch.

Thursday - longer tempo - 1 mile warmup + 6 miles at 6:40, 6:38, 6:37, 6:30, 6:25, 6:25 + 1 mile cooldown

Friday - easy 5 miles. no watch.

Saturday - 11 miles at 7:20 pace.

Sunday - Feb 10, 2013

12 miles at 7:10 pace

-- been dealing with ITBS the last week or so. i think it is due to strides that i've been incorporating. going to cut those away and get some new shoes. saucony pro grid a5's have about 1200 miles on them.