can ryan hall even run 3:50 / 13:58 even without a recent marathon in his legs?
can ryan hall even run 3:50 / 13:58 even without a recent marathon in his legs?
Holy crap. This is the same dude that broke my pull-up world record!
O.o wrote:
Why would it be impossible to do a 2:11 and not be physically capable of a 3:50 1500 and a 13:58 5000?
The only impressive time out of the 3 is the 2:11, the other two times are done by teenage African's and Americans yearly.
Interesting. Why do you say "African's" but not "American's"?
How old is he?
kanata wrote:
Someone please, get this guy a coach. Unreal potential.
Maybe he should be coaching Ryan Hall...
24.
You know why he runs so fast? It's because he had the same mentality as Salazar back in his prime: without the fear of death.
A quote after Yuki's breakthrough at the Tokyo Marathon last year:
“This was my sixth marathon and the fifth time I’ve ended up in the medical area,” he smiles. “Every time I run, it’s with the mindset that if I die at this race it’s OK.”
shoe guy wrote:
It's still weird to think that Kawauchi has a faster marathon PR than Ritz, who has ran 12:56 for 5k and 60:00 for the half marathon. Hopefully that means Ritz can go 2:05 - 2:06.
Radically different personalities I think. Never seen Kawaguchi training. This guy must be doing big miles to stomach the abuse of regular racing. Ritz I think got it in his tank to go wayyy faster. Just maybe he plays into other guys mind games and strengths. Surges and stuff. He is a 5k guy. I think maybe he makes his move too early. I dont think his PR is a good reflection of his abilities. Racing tactics maybe. Some guys personality maybe not suited for marathon.
Euro Runner wrote:
That said, it does look as though Kawauchi has a pretty crazy racing schedule. I hope he doesn't get seriously injured because his running career is highly entertaining to follow.
Agree. But one thing that makes watching him so much fun is that as pretty much an "amateur" he can do what he wants without concerns about what doing so will cost him financially.
Yes the "amateur" status of Kawauchi is interesting. In industrialized nations we seem to have lost the belief that running as fast as Kawauchi can be done holding down a full time job and in some ways this may underlie the general decline in distance running in Europe and Australasia. But Kawauchi is out there getting it done.
As someone knowledgable about Lydiard training methods, do you have any insights into Kawauchi's training which has been described as a Lydiard variation? He seems to be including a long run and some sort of speed workout each week but that is all I can find on the internet.
splits wrote:
Are you really trying to equate the last lap of a race to a separate race 6 days later? That is the exact opposite of "context."
No, he's not.
He's equating the importance of context in both of these cases. He's not saying that the cases are the same, but that the times are impressive specifically when viewed within the context of each particular event.
Do we really need to try so hard to shoot somebody down that we completely ignore the fact that they made a reasonable statement?
There are no teenage afrikans as you well know!
He recovers from races like TDF riders recover from stages.
Guys in the 1970's got off work piled into a car drove all night to a race, drove to another race even if it was a dink no comp race, it was a race. Drive home. Get up, get a run in and off to work. These were the guys running in ~10th to 20th place in ALL the major races. I know od a couple of guys drove up to a Cape Cod race every year well after their prime pitch a tent in some localrace sponsor' yard get a ride to the line and finish in the top 60 or so.
It was fun to run that's why you did it.
I've seen comments and samples of what he does but some of what I've seen is inconsistent with other things I've seen so I can't say anything definitive.
Someone called it a "Lydiard adaption." The Japanese as a group have been heavily influenced by Lydiard for almost half a century but the intervals that their marathoners do usually involve longer reps for marathoners than you'd find in the original Lydiard schedules, though I think Arthur revised some of his interval work for marathoners in his later years. If he's doing a long run and only one speed/pace session a week the two Lydiard principles I see at work are the long run and the limited emphasis on speed/pace work.
I haven't seen much evidence of periodization, but Lydiard did develop an adaption of his method for year round racing that was not periodized. I also don't recall seeing specific hill sessions, though I may just have missed them. I do seem to recall a comment of Kawauchi's about going off at the weekends to places in the mountains where it was pleasant to run, so he may have some hill work in the mix.
The real connection I see to Lydiard is his comment about marathon training making you faster at track distances rather than slower as people have come to believe.
It seems like Yuki Kawauchi can do better without a coach. If he gets a coach it should be like he calls the shots and not the coach. It should be rather like someone around for support when he needs it and not some crazy programs.
His program or whatever he is doing works so far.
Remember any fast Dutch marathoners? Amateurs. Also running 2'10. Lots of races, track, road, all distances. And a day job because running just didn't pay that well. A little prize here and there.
Maybe this guy is not so much strange, as he is successfully old school. No fast times are run without a house in Kenya, a trainer known to be involved in doping, and HUGE clothing sponsors, and agressive or extreme attitudes. Here's a guy who trains how he thinks is best, and races as fast as he can. And is not too lazy to get out of bed and do actual work. This used to be normal.
Many thanks for your insights. I read something about Japanese runners (from Seiko's era) going to train in New Zealand simply becasue Arthur Lydiard was from there. So clearly Lydiard had a big influence although I would not be surprised to see some variation among the different training groups and runners in Japan. The depth in Japan at 1/2 marathon and marathon is still very strong so clearly they are doing something right.
Kawauchi does seem to be some sort of renegade case. He has no coach, and I imagine no spokesperson, so the snippets of his training reported to the press may well appear to be inconsistent. I am further hendicapped as I have no knowledge of the Japanese language and reports in the Japanese press may well be clearer than those I have read. If someone like Nobby has any further information on Kawauchi, it would be great to hear from him. I think the key points of interest would be the pace he runs on his "easy days" and his "long runs" and whether he really does focus on a speed workout each week or whether he just uses races instead.
Kawauchi obviously has a talent for the marathon and has specialized in this event from an early age. Whether this approach has helped him to run faster over shorter distance races is difficult to say. Of cousre he could have just trained purely for the 5K and be runing much slower.
My own experience and observations have convinced me that Lydiard was absolutely correct in saying that training for marathons makes you faster at all distances. That would naturally apply to people who continue racing at shorter distances after running marathons. Not everyone does.
But you can't create alternate histories and compare results. If say, Shorter, had not become a marathoner in 1971 and instead trained solely for the 5,000/10,000 he might have set an even faster US 10,000 record at Munich and finished in the medals. I don't really believe that, but can't prove it's not true. And now we'll never know if Kawauichi would be a faster 1500/5,000 runner if he'd never trained for marathons just as we'll never know if Alan Webb would have had an even better career if he, like Snell, had done a bit of marathon training.
I agree. You can only analyse what has actually happened.
Taking into account your previous post, I think that you will find this recent extract from the Japan runing news blog (with quotes from Yuchi Kawauchi himself) most interesting:
"Just six days after winning his second marathon in three weeks, Yuki Kawauchi (Saitama Pref.) did the unexpected and ran 3:50.51, a PB by six seconds, to win the 1500 m A-heat at the first Nittai University Time Trials Meet of the season. 'It wasn't hard at all today,' Kawauchi told JRN after the race. 'It reinforced to me that Lydiard was right when he said that marathon training doesn't just give you better stamina but also improves your speed. The mainstream approach right now is to work on speed, but I want to take the approach of working on distance. Amateur runners have few opportunities to do high-quality speed training, and the risk of injury is much higher. A lot of people also think that doing marathon training will make you slower, but if I can show them that that's not true I'll be very happy. Next spring I'm going to target the 3:48 qualifying time for the National Track and Field Championships 1500 m.'"
From these quotes, it looks like Kawauchi is following the Lydiard prciniples that you described.
He don't need no coach, he got PEDS.