Wilson Kipketer: A 1:38 800 Is possible Within 4 Years

You are all idiots, weights or not there is no way anyone in our lifetime is running sub 1.39 and if I was a betting man I would suggest even sub 1.40 is a stretch.

I don't want to hear about London and no pacemaking - I would argue that Rudisha is a very special type of athlete that actually performs better when he dictates his own tempo and rhythmn - performing better without a pacemaker.

Nigel Amos 18 years old? Spare me. Same way Leonard Kosencha is 16 right.

no one said 1'38+

i said rudy coud go "well below 1'40" with weights

i was thinking ~ mid-1'39

that's where record shoud be

ryun was probably worth 1'40-low back in '67, so this is not a big move

clearly physics means nothing to you

idiot

they ain't 25 & at their expected peak...

Hey Ventolin - leave the boards if you're just going to call everyone names when they disagree with you. Your theories aren't better than anyone else's - try growing a pair and learning something from other posters.

You mentioned Kiprugut's training. Any specific information on his training? By the way, he ranked 8th in the world in the 400 in 1965.

You mentioned Kiprugut's training. Any specific information on his training? By the way, he ranked 8th in the world in the 400 in 1965.

Toronto wrote:Hey Ventolin - leave the boards if you're just going to call everyone names when they disagree with you

only morons

Your theories aren't better than anyone else's

idiot

some are right there, but lotta peabrains can't think/research enough

try growing a pair and learning something from other posters.

i'd luv to

but drivel doesn't help

previous quote from researchers about drafting - nothing to do with me

power increase for "sprint" events from anyone with a clue :

Carl was jumping a disallowed 30+ 30y ago but events like lj have stagnated even more with crap current flora

the last proper lj'er was dwight with 6.47 speed years before, but always quick

that allowed him to go 8.74 into a horrendous 1.2, worth

~ 8.90

basic

any event, power ( speed ) comes 1st

this lesson has never been't learned enough

you keep training for power/muscle until the trade-off with endurance loss reaches neutral

their is a sport called horse-racing which all depends on weight

learn something

this is greatest horse-race run ever in history of european racing

they saddled Bustino with King's ransom of 14 pounds more than Grundy

now, they've reduced it to 12 pounds after more research, meaning the difference in this race wouda been

2 lengths different if run today

( Bustino's trainer wanted to run 3 pacers but his 3rd one

got injured before & at few $k entry he coudn't find another at such short notice )

he was disappointed after that his 2 pacers coudn't pace it hard enough for Bustino, the toughest horse that Europe ever produced ( = Tergat of the track ( facing geb in balls out 10k ) )

weight, weights & power mean everything...

SlowFatMaster wrote:You mentioned Kiprugut's training. Any specific information on his training? By the way, he ranked 8th in the world in the 400 in 1965.

go watch '68 final

suicidal ~24.0 opening

too quick with absurd already lactate when considering mexico

solo lead until 700m+

more conservative pace, wouda got him high-1'43

pacing to 400 ~ low-1'43

mexico at 7200+ offers ~ 0.5s at worst

that was at sea-level, paced to bell

high-1'42

doubell off similar analysis is worth low-1'43 that day

he won the race, but not intrinsic faster talent - but win was all that counted

The name calling may be tiring but the science behind drafting is sound.

Say two years from now, Rudisha is running 1:40. The race is paced to 48 seconds for the first lap. Rudisha follows, and right behind is a new Kenyan phenomenon, perhaps Timothy Kitump. 700 meters in, Kitump breaks away, running the last 100 .5 seconds faster than Rudisha, finishing 139.3 to 139.9.

If someone comes along who is fast enough to draft off of Rudisha and then pass him, the record could be buried for decades.

Who the blazes is Rudy - never heard of her.

Yeah, I love that race. Kiprugut looked great even with 150 to go.

Any specifics on how Kiprugut trained?

SlowFatMaster wrote:Any specifics on how Kiprugut trained?

no time off from day-job

(6 hours/day work for police/army - keino was 3'27 talent in mexico & that's because he got full time training for 2 - 3/52 camp, but he was training for 5k

( he lost to gammoudi, off bilary colic which caused him to collapse in 10k - which he shouda won )

he didn't want to run 1500

gold already "ascribed" to ryun, because he'd hoped he'd got either 10k or 5k gold already

ryun, if he was in '67 shape, then we are talking 3'24

lucky for keino ryun's illness only got him there in 3'30 shape

anyhows

wilson & kirpkurgat ( = also high-1'42 off following solo run on windy day ) are best 800 intrinsic talents kenya ever produced

Great race! Funny to see someone go out faster than Bayi. John Kipkurgat reminds me of Ereng in his talent and style. Speaking of style, I can never get over Mike Boit's arm action.

I guess I will be waiting a long time to learn about how Wilson Kiprugut trained. Here is an article about Doubell, with some winter training samples (50 x 100 on Monday, 10 x 1200 on Tuesday!) plus comments by Doubell and some information about Doubell's achilles problems leading up to Mexico 1968:

http://www.racingpast.ca/john_contents.php?id=200

Rudisha at 1:41.01 ran 45.5 during his base period in Sydney that year. He ran a time of 1:43 a week later in Melbourne. HIs differential is around 6 seconds. During his world record his 400m time likely would have been approximately 44.5seconds.

Now the comment on weights training is purely speculative. The inherant notion being implied here is that if he completes an elite weights training program he will lose endurance but have a faster overall time due to increased speed. Personally I dont see any basis for this hypothesis.

1.) The belief is that he currently does no weights.

2.) The weights 'must' increase his speed by a larger margin that his differential. i.e: If he dropped to a 6.5 second differential per lap he would need to be clocking 44.0

3.) The belief that weights will infact increase his speed over the 400m whilst performing a high training load. Charlie Francis usees the analogy of a glass of water, and with every new exercise added you come closer to a tipping point. So, to place greater emphasis on weights training what aspect of training misses out? Less Aerobic work? Less Anaerobic development?

4.)The notion that increased muscle mass have a positive effect on 800m performance. Typically heavier 800m runners have significantly slower differentials. How fast how Rudisha have to be to overcome this? If he blew out to Juantorena levels of 7.5 seconds he would need to be running 43.0 for the flat 400m.

Basically most people severly underestimate the difficulty of the 800m world record. I.e sprinters always get tossed up as 'easy' record breakers. Wariner is the most common athlete in this discussion. Lets for instance pretend that wariner stepped up to the 800m immediately following his 43.45.

Now punch in afew numbers and hypothesise what is more likely:

His 400m time whilst training for the 800m" [I.e more endurance/long running]. For arguements sake pretend he keep his 43.45 [which in reality would slow by at least .75sec]

And now provide wariner with Juantorena's endurance even though Wariner did zero 800m training.

43.45 + 7.5seconds = 1:41.90. He still doesn't break the world record under the greatest latitude of hypothesis.

edit: The same arguement exists that Bolt would utterly destroy the 400m WR, Yet Johnson training for the 200/400m is only .14 slower than Bolt over the 200m despite the fact Bolt was training specifically for the short sprints. I'm not stating he wouldn't have a chance to break the 400m world record but what evidence suggests he is a certainty to do so if he tried?

Ventolin, Canova does use weights sometimes with his athletes. I know Coe used them quite a bit and was obviously great at the 800.

I took this partial quote from Canova about strength, weights, and circuits from page 33 of the giant thread. The 6th paragraph is key:

The Basic Training of Strength Endurance during the General Period:

How to Use Modified Circuits

It is always very difficult to interpret the real relationship between STRENGTH and ENDURANCE. Many coaches and scientists have tried to investigate this point but normally using a partial vision of the problem.

In fact, if it’s true that THE SPEED OF AN ATHLETE IS DIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH HIS STRENGTH, it’s also true that using a high percentage of strength for long time depends on bioenergetic and metabolic factors: the factors determining SPECIFIC ENDURANCE.

Following this reasoning, we cannot think of STRENGTH as a decisive factor regarding the various events of middle and long distance: nobody is stronger, for instance, than a thrower but at the same time nobody is weaker when considering the aerobic point of view.

Over many years, I worked in the Italian Centre for middle and long distances in Tirrenia, with Luciano Gigliotti and dr. Pierluigi Fiorella, and we performed countless tests. These were with middle and top level, male and female athletes using the BOSCO test for checking ‘Reactive Strength’ and the Faraggiana-Gigliotti test for checking Lactate levels.

Our goal was to control THE EFFECTS OF AEROBIC TRAINING ON STRENGTH, and THE EFFECTS OF STRENGTH TRAINING ON THE AEROBIC LEVELS. Practically, after a period devoted mostly to Aerobic Training, we checked the Strength levels and after a period devoted mostly to the development of Strength and Technique, we checked the Aerobic levels.

We could see that using Aerobic Training with some special exercises for stimulating the use of Strength, such as running on hilly courses, our athletes improved their values for Strength, identified through the previous BOSCO test. On the contrary, using more specific training for strengthening, the Aerobic Level decreased and the AnT went down.

We think that SPECIFIC SPEED ENDURANCE is not connected with the peak of speed or with the strength of an athlete but with a high level of AnT, so that muscles are allowed to work at higher intensity starting from a better Aerobic Base and having less lactate within the muscle fibres for the same speed.

Therefore, we tried to find some solution in training to synchronously increase both Strength and Aerobic Power. Specifically, the objective was to train the nervous system and the muscles to recruit the greatest number of fibres under conditions of strong acidification.

In order to reach this goal we started from the well known MODIFIED CIRCUITS that have been used in training for a long time in different methodologies, changing the intensity and duration according to the event and the seasonal period of training.

Modified Circuits comprise a sequence of exercises for strength and/or technique, connected together with runs carried out at different speeds and over different distances, depending on the final goal of the Circuit.

(SlowFatMaster here again) Having done some workouts with these circuits, I can say that they hurt like hell and produce a level of whole-body fatigue that is hard to describe and must be experienced in order to fully appreciate.

2.) The weights 'must' increase his speed by a larger margin that his differential. i.e: If he dropped to a 6.5 second differential per lap he would need to be clocking 44.0

3.) The belief that weights will infact increase his speed over the 400m whilst performing a high training load. Charlie Francis usees the analogy of a glass of water, and with every new exercise added you come closer to a tipping point. So, to place greater emphasis on weights training what aspect of training misses out? Less Aerobic work? Less Anaerobic development?

I question these points. The right weight training program might not increase his differential at all. There's really no reason why Rudisha can't run 44, 1:40.

It certainly would not cut into anaerobic work. Weightlifting is some of the most intense anaerobic work. The aerobic conditioning Rudisha has been building up over the years isn't just going to go away because he starts lifting heavy either.

Sports Illustrated article that describes Rudisha's "weight room" but not his actual weight training:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/olympics/2012/writers/david_epstein/08/10/david-rudisha-800-london-olympics/index.html

Stop citing the archaic Pugh paper, for God's sake. Do you cite papers from the 40's when you discuss estrogen? Shall we discuss Hill's weather balloon VO2 data?

Yes Doubell had a 1:43 in him (he ran 807m in the final) but you're wrong about the pacing -- nothing Kiprugut could've done would've got him past Doubell.

Altitude not so much a factor in a 800m. My guess is Doubell (though brilliantly prepared in 1968) was no better at sea-level.

The name-calling makes you seem a tad unstable. Serotonin overload is my best guess there.

Your BMI comments brought me a smile. The average adult in Kenya has a BMI below 20 -- though western diet will change that fairly soon.

A well structured weights training program designed towards increased speed will have very little net benefits for the 800m runner.

1.) To significantly effect speed development though a weights program training must be altered accordingly due to its large contribution towards fatigue. I.e: Elite sprinters will typically do their speed work in the morning followed by a weights session and easy tempo on the days in between. This might resemble something along the lines of m,w,f speed and weights and t,th,s easy tempo. Now for Rudisha do experience any significant benefit where abouts in the program does such an intensive weights regime have its place? He is doing a long run of some description daily, He is doing tempo runs, intervals and some speed work. Something has to give.

2.) WIth the energy demands of the 800m training there is nowhere near enough recovery available in the weekly program to achieve significant gains.

3.) Weights training in terms of a 'speed developer' is less relevant as the distances lessen the need for significant acceleration due to the fact that increased max v can be attained through other methods which may fitter better within a training program. I.e: When wariner was at the peak of his powers he didn't complete a weights program resembling anywhere near what would be required to increase speed. His weights training was light weight circuit work which Rudisha currently does.

Jasari22 wrote:A well structured weights training program designed towards increased speed will have very little net benefits for the 800m runner

drivel

one of the reasons coe went from a 1'44 guy to a 1'41.7 over a few years was extensive use of weights

even elite 800 guys can improve

an elite 800 guy may have theoretical 400 of 46.0 & 3'30.0

->1'42.49

( it doesn't mean he can go 3'30, but he has that in theory if endurance lasted to 1500 - like rudy woud expect to have theoretical 3'28 or even 3'27 currently, but likely 3'35 woud be his best )

now, if he does weights & his speed increases to 45.5, it's question of how much his 3'30.0 is likely to slow

the maximum slowing, if he lost all the endurance he gained proportionate to speed woud be

3'30*(46.0/45.5) = 3'32.30

45.5 / 3'32.3

->1'42.66

a slowing overall for expected 800

however, in reality, the elite guy is not likely to lose that much 1500 endurance, as the gained speed will help offset some of the slowing & he has years of accumulated aerobic base which he isn't going to lose overnight

a more likely range is that he woud slow his 1500 to somewhere in 3'31.0 - 3'31.5 range as a ballpark

45.5 with 3'31.0 - 3'31.5

->1'42.29 - 1'42.43

more likely is that the better 400 speed by 0.5s woud help the 800 overall by upto 2/10 tenths

not a large amount, but 2/10s is still significant improvement when already elite