Mathew Kisorio (58:46 Philly half marathon) busted

jjjjjjj wrote:

No one under 12:50 in 5 years and then 6 in one race and none of them were named Bekele, Farah, Rupp, or Lagat.

Nothing strange about that. Have you watched the DL races the last few years. They never go out in a WR pace and try to hold that. Instead the races almost immediately turns into tactical affairs. Same thing with the 1500: WR pace is 55s/lap, but in the big races it´s always the same. The first lap in 56 and the second in 58. Of course all world class runners can run 800 in 1,50 - they just don´t want to risk tiring and being outsprinted in the end. It´s just too much money involved in a DL race.

so no money in this year's DL?

nope, suspicious indiid.

What we need is a Drug Cheat Suspect flowchart.

Times improved dramatically?

Associated with coach who has trained other doper(s)?

Trained with other doper(s)?

Came out of nowhere?

Body changes? (More for steroids than EPO)

Getting "injured" at the right time?

One off performances (or a few)?

Purposely avoiding limelight (media)?

Maintaining or even improving at an older age? ----This one is a big red flag-----

So on..

[quote]coach d wrote:

How many sub-12:50's when there hadn't been a single one by anyone other then Kenny B in

Other THAN

It's not that hard

suspicious to whom? That there have been Americans under 13.00 for 5000m says that the talent is there, but the coaching and drive isn't.

Why must ALL americans flock to a handful of coaches (Salazar, Cook, Rowland, Schumacher, Gags) in order to improve after College? If the coaching structure was as good as it should be, then literally hundreads of runners (not as many as the Africans but then their incentives are different)should be closing in on 13.00, or sub-2h10. What is good about the NCAA is also what is bad for long-term development. Look at Levins or Mo Ahmed (Canadians at that), they aren't in one of those groups yet run well, they aren't that good either, just that Americans should be (but aren't) much better.

I have seen a local guy run 13.21 and 2h10 who wasn't very good in High school, but got good coaching and has the drive (made the personal and financial sacrifices) to get to that level. More is the point why more "talented" guys dropped by the wayside. That is the difference. The Americans may have to make a bigger investment in time, coaching, etc. to get to the same level, but it can be done. I just get tired of hearing the excuses, and drugs by others is the lamest of them all.

As to the problem with the doctors, it is about properly filling out TUI's, which many Africans don't know enough about, and perhaps their agents don't care enough about.

The incentives being bigger is of course also more reason to cheat.

I'm happy with every new catch, and hope that this means detection and testing are catching up to the methods of evasion-- which I don't really know the details of, since this is not the type of science that gets published in the typical scientific journal.

I'm not sure why both rojo and flying fin are annoyed that people are speculating without having all the facts-- face it, the public will never have all the facts. So we talk about our sport with what we have, even though it's not much. Should we just say nothing? People get to have their opinions, and any time there are breakout performances, it would be naive to not consider PEDs.

I do think the recent number of Kenyan busts is interesting, since it seems to contradict the old saw that all Kenyan runners were pure at heart, and never would ingest even an aspirin. I frankly think that's ludicrous- people are people, and you dangle enough of a reward out, they'll do anything to get it-- whether it's training ridiculously hard, or taking PEDs, or both. Plus, as the sad story of Wanjiru shows, Kenyans can ingest alcohol as well as any other people, which seems to be in conflict with the whole "they would never take anything that would hurt them" mindset.

Finally, I think it's interesting that in cycling, not only are times not getting faster, they're actually slowing. They have the benefit of being able to study power output, and the science of sport blog had interesting analysis of how power output on the beyond-category climbs was down from 6.2-6.4 watts/kg to 5.8-6.9. That's a 7% drop. If we take slower times in cycling as signs of a cleaner sport, it's a bit naive to say that all the fast marathon times (and recent 5Ks) are just the result of bigger incentives. It's one possibility. But there are others, and it's pretty ridiculous to imply that fans of the sport can't speculate about the others.

Look more recently he finished 3rd at the Peachtree 10K July 4th 2012.

PETER KIRUI 27:37

MICAH KOGO 27:39

MATHEW KISORIO 27:39

AZMERAW BEKELE MOLALIGN 27:59

PAUL LONYANGATA 28:01

I hope they withhold his prize money. Do the race directors even keep up with this stuff?

Why in the world would a long distance runner take anabolic steroids?

The guy had a hip injury and a stupid doctor gave him steroids

Rojo,

Why are you all of a sudden a Kenyan apologist? Given the positive tests lately, NOW is the most appropriate time to be speculating that something sinister is going on.

There are fast times this year because it's an Olympic year and Ethiopia has had innumerable races that were supposed to serve as trials (including that fast 5k). Think about what you're saying: there have been few fast 5ks in the past few years. Do you think there was no doping those years? Those are the same years that the marathon was exploding, which you attribute to doping.

This is not right at all, these guy is as innocent as they come, steroids builds muscles which hinders long distance running, this whole thing is stupid, Kenyans are being setup.

You're competely wrong to think steroids don't benefit distance runners. Steroids aide recovery. You can workout at a much higher level on roids as a result of being able to recover. He's not the first distance runner to test positive for roids.

It adds mass and hinders endurance, it is good for sprinters but not endurance runners, they need lean muscles

The guy had a hip injury and the stupid doctor injected him with anabolics to repair tissue, there is more harm than good that anabolics can give a long distance runner

You must be trolling, but in case you aren't, there are many different types of steroids and not all will just build big muscles.

The main benefit to a distance runner taking steroids is recovery - to be able to train with a higher volume and intensity, recover faster and repeat all over again.

I didn't attribute fast marathon times to doping-- I just pointed out that doping is another plausible explanation, rather than the increase in prize money, and that fans have every right to speculate. It could be either, or both, or something else.

I think there is constant doping, but every time there is a flurry of fast times, yes, the thought crosses my mind that someone has figured out a new substance, a new dosing regimen, or some other way to cheat.

Lets face it:

-PEDs are readily available, both detectable and (probably) undetectable. I doubt "the clear" was the only designer steroid out there, but of course I have no exact knowledge.

-People take the risk of taking detectable PEDs

-Thus, I have to assume that some, and probably many, elite athletes take the undetectable ones. I can't imagine they're stupid enough to choose only the ones that are detectable

Real penalties (lifetime bans, financial claw-backs for athletes, agents, and doctors) are the only way this will be decreased. Retroactive testing on stored samples would be nice too.

The biggest doper of all time is that Menjo guy. He only runs little dinky races and runs fast times. Not long ago when he popped off that great 5k and 10k winning by several minutes should have been a red flag he's a doper. But then when it comes to big races he's nowhere to be found. I say test him tomorrow and then ban him. He's fallen off the radar now, but he may be back later this year at some dinky race.

Real penalties (lifetime bans, financial claw-backs for athletes, agents, and doctors) are the only way this will be decreased. Retroactive testing on stored samples would be nice too.[/quote]

So where are the biological passports? Where is the ongoing, in season and out of season testing? Where is the registering your whereabouts so testers can find you? Where are the suspensions for abnormalities even if they don't constitute full blown proof?

You're not going to stop doping with penalties alone, you have to establish baseline blood metrics the constantly look for abnormalities. And then make it hurt when you find them. Other sports (well, actually, one other sport) does this and it's being destroyed because of it. But it is forcing an honesty that no other sport can match, and it has shaken the drug culture to its foundations.

Until IAAF puts in the same programs as UCI has, track and running will be always on it's heels trying to catch people, or busy covering up the obvious abuses. Until biological passports are established, IAAF cannot say it is serious about stopping abuse. BPs may not be the final answer, but they are a step in the right direction.