Mathew Kisorio (58:46 Philly half marathon) busted

About the only clean athlete I believe is Semenya. She's getting her drugs naturally.

His pt was that the athletes (who are presumptively responsible for what goes into them even if they are simply taking what coaches give them) would not be caught unless their doctors were incompetent, not that the athletes are innocent.

The avalanche of sub 2:05s and sub 59s stretched credulity, as did the six sub 12:50s all of a sudden. Kenyans don't need drugs to dominate marathons but when the competition among Kenyans (with Ethiopians too) becomes so keen and everyone trains together the same way, doping becomes the difference maker.

Here's my translation of the story:

"A few days before the beginning of the Olympic Games, Kenya is shaken by more doping cases. There are, admittedly, no members of the Olympic team involved, but athletes have arrived(??).

From 1993 to 2009, from John Ngugi, who refused a doping test, to Raymond Tanui, in Kenya only exactly ten athletes fell into the net of the doping investigators, who now have heaped up cases at once (??). On the weekend, three (cases) became public at once: Jemima Jelagat Sumgong had traces of cortisone in her body at the Boston Marathon, in which she was second, Rael Kiyara had Nandrolone in his victory at Hamburg, and Mathew Kisorio had anabolic steroids (in him) at the Kenyan 10000m championships.

In a Haze at the Top(???)

Admittedly all three do not belong to the Kenyan Olympic team, but still to the athletes arriving (in the sense of emerging as top athletes??) from the country(?). Kiyara (28) improved in Hamburg to 2:23:47, Sumgong (27) ran a personal best of 2:28:32 in the Castellon-Marathon in December 2011 after the birth of her daughter, and also the 23 year old Kisorio belongs already at the absolute peak: he was second in the junior world championships in 2008 over 5000m, fourth at World Cross Country championships in 2011, and improved in the half marathon in the same year to 58:46--the third best time in history. Last November, he ran his first marathon, in New York.

A further case is still in the pipeline: Ronald Kipchumba was caught with traces of EPO in his blood at the Linz Marathon. The second place Kipchumba boasted an insignificant marathon best time, but has an imposing past as a steepler: he was the youth world champion in 2003 over 2000m steeplechase and a year later was world junior champion over 3000m Steeplechase, he competed in the steeple in the following years, but no more below his bests, so that he, like so many other athletes, changed from the track to the road.

It is no secret that Erythropoetin, EPO for short, is frequently injected in the longer distances(?), because this hormone increases the production of red blood cells, which are responsible for the transport of oxygen. The more oxygen is present in the blood, the better the endurance capacity. But that now in Kisorio and Rael Kiyaraanabolic steroids were found, which accelerate the production of albumen(?) and thereby muscle growth, and above all help sprinters is still very curious (notable).

A Thin Red Line of Medicine

The information available indicates that both, Kisorio and Kiyara, on account of the flu went to the same doctor in El Doret for treatment. "For me that is proof that in Kenya most athletes and doctors still know nothing about doping limits," says Brother Colm O'Connell, the 63-year old legendary Irish trainer, "the understanding is lacking."

Claudio Berardelli, the coach of Mathew Kisorio and Jemima Sumgong, who for years has also been Viktor Röthlin's advisor in Kenya, counts (passes himself off? gibt sich?) himself as really shocked, "that an athlete of the caliber of Kisorio can be treated with steroids is inexplicable to me. He has served a two year ban(?? will?).»

But with Jemima the case is different. She may have been treated with the steroid-cortisone (cortical steroid?) for her hip joint before the Boston Marathon in a medical center in Brescia. All the documents are in and we now await the IAAF's decision. "if necessary, we will undertake the proper steps," says Berardelli. The International organization has expressly allowed treatments, namely, cortisone injections in joints since the beginning of this year."

None of us who participate on this website have any way to evaluate this evidence. There just isn't enough serious journalism on the topic. I personally thing that proven cheats should be banned for life, but so many people here are way to quick to jump to conclusions based on hearsay. There is one thing that I find to be as disturbing as drug cheats, it's the pervasive cynicism that so often masks an underlying racism against African athletes. I know that some people here thing all the top runners take drugs (Rupp detractors) but most of the negative comments are really about Africans. You don't really know anything about this topic--there just isn't enough reliable reporting. Getting rid of drugs in this sport is going to take a while, and jumping to conclusions does more harm than good.

Flying Fin wrote:

None of us who participate on this website have any way to evaluate this evidence. There just isn't enough serious journalism on the topic. I personally thing that proven cheats should be banned for life, but so many people here are way to quick to jump to conclusions based on hearsay. There is one thing that I find to be as disturbing as drug cheats, it's the pervasive cynicism that so often masks an underlying racism against African athletes. I know that some people here thing all the top runners take drugs (Rupp detractors) but most of the negative comments are really about Africans. You don't really know anything about this topic--there just isn't enough reliable reporting. Getting rid of drugs in this sport is going to take a while, and jumping to conclusions does more harm than good.

I see a lot more comments on here regarding former Soviet countries doping.

Russian dude said to all the American runners at London bar.

"YOU WILL LOSE."

Claudio Berardelli, young Italian super coach

http://www.spikesmag.com/features/supercoachclaudioberardellipt1.aspx

The man who is feted as bringing a scientific approach to training East Africans... Suddenly the marathon times improve dramatically. The new training methods must be brilliant to make such a difference.

Pieces are slowly coming together, and the picture isn't pretty.

Nappy Roots wrote:

This is huge, indeed. To be honest, the other names were just "out liers" in my mind who got caught up. If Kisorio's doping allegations are true, this is definitely indicative of what smells like widespread doping amongst Kenyans. Seriously, this is a no-name guy trying out steroids but a big namer with international experience.

The posts on this thread are just 100% pure speculation and in my mind ignorant. Has anyone on here ever been to Kenya?

Do you even know if Kisorio trains alone or in a group?

A few key thoughts to remember about this and all doping cases.

1) When athletes get busted, they will almost always have a great excuse whether true or not.

2) Sometimes athletes actually have legitimate excuses. LaShawn Merritt.

3) The key is to take a step back and let the facts come in. Sometimes the story is way more damaging than thought (Penn state). Other times it is way less damaging (Duke lacrosse).

4) But the person who says "this is definitely indicative of what smells like widespread doping amongst Kenyans" is being irresonsible in my opinion and wildly jumping to conclusions.

When Regina Jacobs tested positive, did that mean that SFW was dirty as well? If Alan Webb tested positive does that mean that Ryan Hall is doping. Kenya is a big place and it's full of millions of individuals. They don't all train together.

Yes this is speculation but it's a valid speculation.

TImes have dropped tremendously recently. And it's not like Kenya/Ethiopia hasn't been the source of great talent in the past 3 decades, so how did they suddenly find such speed? There has not been anything revolutionary in distance training in many decades.

Take Dejen Gebremeskel for example, he ran 13:21 a few years ago as a "17" year old. Now he is a 12:46 guy. So if there is so much talent out there then why did they not set incredible records or have such depth pre-1992 (when EPO was becoming prevalent in cycling and other endurance events)?

Densimo held the Marathon record for over ten years prior to KK. Now you can hardly find those guys on the list.

I truly believe that record would have fallen and also believe that what Tergat ran was legit.

It's the amount of runners that are all of a sudden running sub 2:05 / sub 59 that makes things look suspect. It seems like you're an unknown now if you can't go under 2:07. I don't think modern training methods have progressed that far to warrant the performances from a wide array of athletes.

To think these guys are not taking whatever they need to get faster is ignorant. To think it's not available to them is ignorant. To think that trainers and coaches that have access to whatever is needed ride high on the moral highway when others are cutting corners around them is also ignorant.

I don't buy it. Our sport is as dirty as cycling.

I'll be honest. If I was living in Kenya and my family was starving and I was offered something that would allow me to perform at a level that would allow my family to prosper I'm not sure I would turn it down either.

jjjjjjj wrote:Kenyans don't need drugs to dominate marathons but when the competition among Kenyans (with Ethiopians too) becomes so keen and everyone trains together the same way, doping becomes the difference maker...

Imo this is a big reason why doping happens, the local competition. The Russian middle distance women, US sprinters, same thing.

Does anybody know who is in kipsorio's training group?

Yes, there are a lot of comments about the Soviet Bloc countries, but we didn't know the extent of their cheating and have definite proof of it until the Berlin wall came down in 1989. Kenya (and Kenyans training in Europe) are an OPEN environments, not East German training camps. If journalists and the IAAF want to look into this in a systematic and comprehensive way, it is within their power to do so. But at this point in time, we don't really know anything about this.

Not many Kenyans ran before the 80s. There was a huge influx of Kenyan runners into the long distance running scene in the late 80s.

Pk ripper wrote:

How about closing the last 5k of a 10k in 12.55?

It wasn't quite that fast, and you're making it sound much different than it was. 12:57 off a jog for these guys. It's not really closing a 10k, it's more like starting a 5k race after a 5k warm up.

You say it's fishy when Gebremeskel improves from 13:21 to 12:46 with no other information. So, why not make the same assumption when Ritzenhein improves from 13:16 to 12:56. You could also go back further to 1975 when Bill Rodgers improved from 2:19 to 2:09 in the marathon. If you are basing your information purely on speculation and performance improvement you are going to have to cast a very wide net. That's the same logic that says every young man who lives "in the hood" is a crack-doped murderer. It's not critical thinking, just knee-jerk reaction. You *want* something to fit your paranoid fantasy so you start running with teeny nuggets of hearsay.

it has to be said wrote:

Yes this is speculation but it's a valid speculation.

TImes have dropped tremendously recently. And it's not like Kenya/Ethiopia hasn't been the source of great talent in the past 3 decades, so how did they suddenly find such speed? There has not been anything revolutionary in distance training in many decades.

Take Dejen Gebremeskel for example, he ran 13:21 a few years ago as a "17" year old. Now he is a 12:46 guy. So if there is so much talent out there then why did they not set incredible records or have such depth pre-1992 (when EPO was becoming prevalent in cycling and other endurance events)?

Times haven't dropped at all recently. Guys ran in the 1230 and 1240s when EPO came out but recently the times have stagnated which was a great sign for me.

Times have come down dramatically in the marathon recently. Yes they have. The reason for that is that the marathon times are just catching up to what they should be based on track times.

Take a look at John Kellogg's conversion chart from 2007 here:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1739614

If you do the math, you see that a 2:03:38 marathon would equate to about 12:38.3 for the 5000 and about 26:20 in the 10k. And the WR in the 5000 is 12:37 and 26:17 in the 10,000. The marathon times have just come down to where they should be as predicted by JK's chart 5 years ago.

People need to remember that an African had never won the Boston marathon until 1988 - now they've only not won twice since.

It takes a long time to train for a marathon and that requires patience and a plan - something that was in short supply in Africa when the world of marathoning wasn't a big money maker like it is now.Now most of the talent is going there.

I'll admit that the overall drop in times when EPO hit the market was suspicious for sure and I wrote a piece on that matter back on the day. But one could also argue that the financial aspect of the sport is so big now that A TON more Africans are giving it a concerted effort than they were 25 years ago.

Back in the day, it was nice to win honor for your country but you wouldn't be loaded for life. The incentives are way bigger now.

also the incentive to cheat, I fear.

sadddf wrote:

Not many Kenyans ran before the 80s. There was a huge influx of Kenyan runners into the long distance running scene in the late 80s.

Tell that to Ron Clarke in either 1966 or 1968 or any of the US collegiate runners who were racing armies of Kenyans running for Washington State, UTEP and Iowa State.

Beradelli was brought into coaching by Gabrielle Rosa!? How can you people think this is not suspicious.

What about the fact that 28min+ 10k guys like kibet can make late-career drops into the 2:04 range while working with these young italian 'supercoaches' with a cycling background?

Rojo - stupid.