Let him in. Provides intrigue and hell, if they're gonna let Trafeh in off a fake time, why not let in Webby?
Let him in. Provides intrigue and hell, if they're gonna let Trafeh in off a fake time, why not let in Webby?
road rashed wrote:
Let him in. Provides intrigue and hell, if they're gonna let Trafeh in off a fake time, why not let in Webby?
+1
jjjjjjjj wrote:
he's got a 13:10 on the resume and has been training very well; in addition, he has run 3:37 this year and that puts him near the front of the 5000m field. if he finally runs a race commensurate with his shape, he'll embarrass quite a number of runners in the field, particularly in a typically slow race to 4k.
I agreed with you until your last sentence. The new Webb would struggle more in a slow paced race. 5 years ago he would have been ok.
TrackCoach wrote:
2. The USATF has to start making marketabilty one of its top priorities and Webb is an intriging draw.
Right. After a little backstory on Webb they can show the start of the 5000m race, cut away to javelin or whatever, followed by a commercial break, then, if we're lucky we'll get to watch the last few laps with Webb way off the top 3. I'd rather see the mile AR holder try to make the Olympic team in his own event.
jjjjjjjj wrote:
he's got a 13:10 on the resume and has been training very well; in addition, he has run 3:37 this year and that puts him near the front of the 5000m field. if he finally runs a race commensurate with his shape, he'll embarrass quite a number of runners in the field, particularly in a typically slow race to 4k.
Thank you for articulating your reasons. I personally don't agree but respect your right to have a different opinion.
I personally don't think the 13:10 on his resume is all that relevant. It was in 2005. When is the last time he ran under 13:33? I am asking a genuine question, as I did some googling for race results but couldn't find a full listing of 5000m for Alan.
I think if he keeps running mediocre races that indicates that his races actually are "commensurate with his shape." I don't think he has shown he has much of a kick either. The Webb who was able to embarrass people exited stage left a few years ago.
Add to that, Webb had the same opportunity to run a qualifying time as all of the other competitors. I don't think he deserves special consideration just because he decided to switch events at the last minute.
I will add that I am only in favor of exceptions to the qualifying standards being granted in extraordinary circumstances. I think that granting exceptions generally is a poor practice because it undermines the merit based qualification system in place. Seems that one of the strengths of USATF, despite its flaws, is the qualification system. It is transparent and people earn their place on the track. That said, I know the rules permit exceptions and that as a practical matter John Chaplin can grant or deny them however he chooses.
absolutenumbers and a few others hit the nail on the head.
Let Webb in, and increase the field size by 1. You let another athlete into the 1500, which is great for that person. You are paying respect to Webb's past accomplishments, and really, he is someone who has to be considered as a possibility to actually make the team.
There is no downside to the field or to any individual in the 5000 and upside to an individual in the 1500.
I don't see the problem here.
WhatYo wrote:
absolutenumbers and a few others hit the nail on the head.
Let Webb in, and increase the field size by 1. You let another athlete into the 1500, which is great for that person. You are paying respect to Webb's past accomplishments, and really, he is someone who has to be considered as a possibility to actually make the team.
There is no downside to the field or to any individual in the 5000 and upside to an individual in the 1500.
I don't see the problem here.
What about the 17 guys that have hit a provisional time ahead of Webb? Should they be admitted as well? Or screw them over?
If he runs, he will need to finish under the "A" standard, so it is necessary for him to make sure the pace is fast enough for that.
Webbed Feet wrote:
jjjjjjjj wrote:he's got a 13:10 on the resume and has been training very well; in addition, he has run 3:37 this year and that puts him near the front of the 5000m field. if he finally runs a race commensurate with his shape, he'll embarrass quite a number of runners in the field, particularly in a typically slow race to 4k.
I agreed with you until your last sentence. The new Webb would struggle more in a slow paced race. 5 years ago he would have been ok.
I agree. much like the exemptions at US open (golf), the Masters, etc., for former champions, I do feel that we need a "reasonable fitness" exemption for former Olympians, american record holders, national champions, etc. now the caveat is that they would have to show "reasonable fitness", which would basically be subjective, but essentially come down to, "will you be last place if we let you in?" No? ok, you're in. something like this i would def support!
dean moriarty wrote:
Of course! Let the former Olympians and record holders run whatever they want. Just expand the field by one so he doesn't bump anyone.
old coach man wrote:
What about the 17 guys that have hit a provisional time ahead of Webb? Should they be admitted as well? Or screw them over?
letting webb in doesn't affect them; they weren't going to race anyway, so they're not getting "screwed over" at all.
and i think that if any of those 17 guys were unemotional about it, they would recognize that webb deserves to be in the race more than they do.
even if webb only has a 1% chance of making the team, those other 17 guys have pretty much 0.
vuvuzzz wrote:
old coach man wrote:What about the 17 guys that have hit a provisional time ahead of Webb? Should they be admitted as well? Or screw them over?
letting webb in doesn't affect them; they weren't going to race anyway, so they're not getting "screwed over" at all.
and i think that if any of those 17 guys were unemotional about it, they would recognize that webb deserves to be in the race more than they do.
even if webb only has a 1% chance of making the team, those other 17 guys have pretty much 0.
Webb doesn't deserve to be in a race more than someone who has run faster than him. Webb didn't even hit the B standard. What's the point of standards if everyone doesn't have to hit them? Your spot should be earned, not given.
I don't think the provisional qualifiers in the 5000 should be pissed if Webb is let in. Webb has an automatic in the 1500m. If they let Webb in as an extra (i.e. nobody gets bumped based on the original plan for field size), then nobody is getting left out who wasn't already going to be left out. Webb earned the right to compete in the trials. Maybe not in the 5000m, but he has a better claim on the right to compete than a provisional qualifier.
There should be some mechanism for people who qualified automatically in an event to change events. I know this gets messy but they could come up with a mechanism and eventually codify it in the rules.
I do think it is important to stick to the rules. The fact that there is a petition process shows that there is a rule-based mechanism for this to happen. I think in the future that USATF should craft more specific rules rather than use a petition mechanism. This will cut down on the number of people who get upset over things like this.
Lastly, I think this move is a mistake for Webb. I don't think we'll see a good season out of him until he can display a little confidence in his plan. His problem lately seems to be not being able to stick with a plan. If the 5000m was not his plan 2 weeks ago, why change now? Better to go in the 1500m and give it a best effort, then come back next year and build on what has been a moderately successful year. There's no reason he couldn't be at 3:33 next year and perhaps back in 13:0x shape and compete in the 5k next year. The odds of him ripping off a good 5k this year are small, and failure is probably not going to be good for him mentally. Oh well, at least he is finally thinking of moving up.
anonymouse cowherd wrote:
I agree. much like the exemptions at US open (golf), the Masters, etc., for former champions, I do feel that we need a "reasonable fitness" exemption for former Olympians, american record holders, national champions, etc. now the caveat is that they would have to show "reasonable fitness", which would basically be subjective, but essentially come down to, "will you be last place if we let you in?" No? ok, you're in. something like this i would def support!
If this was the rule I would not have any problem with it. All former marathon Olympians can run at the Marathon trials. The standards already allow some other special situations (Brian Clay gets in with no mark because he is the Olympic Gold Medalist).
Personally I think the easiest way to do that would be to allow the Olympians from the previous Olympics (which would exclude Webb) to auto-qualify in that event only (which would also exclude Webb. Of course then you are potentially expanding the auto-qualifiers by 3 in every event, so you would run up against field size restrictions.
ahsdkjsahdkjahkd wrote:
I don't think the provisional qualifiers in the 5000 should be pissed if Webb is let in. Webb has an automatic in the 1500m. If they let Webb in as an extra (i.e. nobody gets bumped based on the original plan for field size), then nobody is getting left out who wasn't already going to be left out. Webb earned the right to compete in the trials. Maybe not in the 5000m, but he has a better claim on the right to compete than a provisional qualifier.
The usual procedure is for provisional qualifiers to be accepted in order. Of course the provisional qualifiers would have a good reason to be upset. If you are going to depart from usual procedure there should be a very, very good reason for it. I can't see any compelling justification in Webb's case.
Even if Webb gets in, I wonder if the "backdoor" nature if how it happened, and the possibility of a (smallish) controversy, might mess with his head. I've never met the guy, so I'm just speculating, but he seems to be the sort who might be bothered by that.
Fam will need similar "back door" to qualify to Trials
Webb has the time for the 1500, but not the 5000. He has no choice but to run the 1500. Those are the rules.
If he had not thought the baby was coming this weekend he would have gotten the standard in Indy.
timolois wrote:
Webb has the time for the 1500, but not the 5000. He has no choice but to run the 1500. Those are the rules.
The rules also allow an appeal to be made, and USATF can either accept or deny the appeal. So Webb running the 5000m ahead of faster entrants would be completely within the rules.
Another important point that everyone has failed to bring up is whether its the USATF's job to find the fastest team for the Olympics. I think this is what they should do. They're job is to give the US the best chance to succeed at the olympics (win medals). In the spirit, Webb should be allowed to run because of the uncertainty. No one knows what sort of 5K shape he is in. He could win, he could be at the back, whereas the other provisional qualifiers almost certainly not going to be in the top three. To get the best chance to medal, we need to see how fast Webb really is, and only going to the trials will show it.