Doping widespread in Kenya? Fresh allegations by German journalist

^I was just going to say this.

This is such a nothing story. The reporter has NO evidence except what some random Kenyan he found said who thought he could make money out of some dumb foreigner.

I understand the intercultural communication problem.

But not everything can be ascribed to that. For example the reporter did get EPO in that shop.

Real pharma epo? Or some chinese knock off or what.

sdf wrote:

I understand the intercultural communication problem.

But not everything can be ascribed to that. For example the reporter did get EPO in that shop.

Even if he did get EPO, and even if it was tested and confirmed as being real EPO, that's not news. EPO is a fairly important drug for certain types of kidney issues and anemias, so I don't think any legitimate source has ever said it was impossible to get in Nairobi.

But my understanding of the report is that the Kenyan "doc" just told the journalist that he could provide EPO and HGH, but the journalist didn't actually purchase either, though I could be mistaken as my knowledge of the (German tv) report is from secondary sources.

Reminder: I have no idea about how much doping, if any, is going on in Kenya or anywhere else. Nor do I have a real stake in the matter either way.

ventolin^3 wrote:

same old story wrote:its well known that there are a number of ''dactari'' in and around Nairobi who can get EPO for $10 a shot

let's talk $$$

proper pharmaceutical quality epo

http://bestmedvalues.com/buy-ARANESP-online

◦For anemia from cancer chemotherapy:

¡Adults Dose is based on body weight and must be determined by your doctor. The usual dose is 2.25 micrograms (mcg) per kilogram (kg) (1 mcg per pound) of body weight once a week

this woud likely be minimal dose a doper woud take

2.25mcg/kg every 1/52

say guy is about 60kg -> 135mcg/week

looking at prices :

100 mcg Vial 1 $2134.82

25 mcg Vial 2 $1031.02

to get 135mcg, you'd need a 100mcg vial + 2 of the 25mcg

so we are talking

$ 3165.84

what kinda shit do you think they are getting for 10 bucks ???

you dont know shit about epo. it isnt measured in mcg, and the dosages cannot be calculated in such a way without knowing the bioactivity and concentration. epo is measured and dosed in IU or international units

please be kidding wrote:you dont know shit about epo. it isnt measured in mcg, and the dosages cannot be calculated in such a way without knowing the bioactivity and concentration. epo is measured and dosed in IU or international units

moron

you haven't a clue about this

aranesp - mcg/kg

binocrit - units/kg

eprex - units/kg

neorecormon - units/kg

eporatio - units/kg

retacrit - units/kg

mircera - mcg/kg

moron

you haven't a clue about this

aranesp - mcg/kg

binocrit - units/kg

eprex - units/kg

neorecormon - units/kg

eporatio - units/kg

retacrit - units/kg

mircera - mcg/kg[/quote]

even aranesp and mircera are actually dosed in iu, and an athlete would have to be a fool to use aranesp, its the most detectable form of epo available. They are never dosed in mcg. Their volume may be in mcg, but the dosage is done in international units and these two are typically done via infusion as opposed to simple injection.

"Please be Kidding" is winning this debate at the moment.

That's a really interesting post. But it seems to me that it just makes things murkier.

If you assume that Kenyans are eager to give whites what they seem to want because whites are seen as potential sources of wealth, I have to wonder what limits, if any, there are to this dynamic. If Kenyans are willing to show a white person someone who sells steroids or EPO because doing this may potentially yield a bit of cash, why would they not cooperate with a white person who says, "Take this stuff and I'll enter you into some races where you'll make a crapload more money than you'd make if you don't take this stuff?"

I'm not suggesting that there are no limits to the dynamic. I don't know. But just because Kenyans' eagerness to help a white person "find" a doctor who would sell EPO to anyone does not mean that this doctor really doesn't have EPO or doesn't dispense it freely.

How does that link suggest "a 3% performance increase" in time for "elite endurance athletes"?The "sports scientists" talked about a study measuring:- fit, but non-elite, cyclists- increase in peak power output after 4 weeks- increase in time to exhaustion after 4 weeksThey mentioned that elite athletes would see less of an improvement, guessing maybe a 3% increase in peak power, and a 5% increase in average power output was conservative.I don't see how a study using non-elite cyclists measuring peak power and time to exhaustion at 80% of that peak power, can be used to suggest anything about time improvements for "elite endurance athletes" in running events. How do changes in cycling power output in Watts (and/or time to exhaustion) correlate to improvements in seconds for a 10K time?Are you sure you gave us the right link?

Do the math wrote:

Consider this: By conservative estimates [1], EPO gives elite endurance athletes a 3% performance increase. For the 10,000m, that's at least 45 seconds, for the marathon, it's around 3 minutes. At the very top of the sport, 3% is a huge difference (much more than individual variation), so if there were both clean runners and drugged runners, you would see a dichotomy of performances. If there is no such dichotomy at the very top, it either means everyone is clean, or everyone is on drugs.

[1]

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

It is incredibly naive to believe that NO Kenyan (or other African) is doping. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it. Did humans suddenly gain some physical advantage in the last 10+ years? Heck No.

Yet the WR went from holding steady at 2:06:50 for over 10 years from 1988 to 1999, when the first guy broke 2:06, to now a sub 2:06 is required to win ANY decent size marathon almost regardless of conditions. Now that guy who was a phenomenon for breaking 2:06 is around 50th all time. Starting in 2007/8 marathon times made a drastic drop.

The money has been there for decades in big marathons, so that is not it.

Did training techniques change drastically? No, Lydiard pretty much had the system down in the 60s.

What changes so quickly in the human world? Scientific advances. It is the obvious answer and it is the ONLY answer.

The whole thing sounds pretty flimsy, especially as the best he can do is "not offer a direct proof" of doping.Patrick Makau regularly shops at a health food store? Wow! Smoking gun shows widespread doping!He should have stayed undercover longer.

Querfeldein wrote:

Hajo Seppelt, a well-known German sports journalist, has been traveling to Kenya, and claims to have found evidence of widespread doping by posing undercover as a sports agent. ...

I do not think Mzungu was suggesting (necessarily) that the "Kenyan" would direct a foreigner to the EPO (or users). It was more the fact that they would SAY they could do it (even if they couldn't). As for the limits - what limits would you put on doing what it takes to put food on the table for your family? These guys are extremely vulnerable and it is the honest ones who suffer the most.

Why would you want to dope them and yet there is a big pool of runners that you can tap from. The people who dope are the one's who have limited talent pool and don't have any option but to exploit a runner in whichever way possible, Kenyans don't need that. The reason why you see Kenyans come and go is because they train so had that most days are like racing and they get worn out after few years because of so many miles in them. I know of alot of friends who spend 10 years training hard before they went outside Kenya for races and they lasted 2-3 years and they were gone. why do these guys train 10 years if they can just get a drug? I train 5 years 2 times a day before I got a scholarship to go abroad, I never in mind thought of getting a drug to help me.

Many years ago I looked at progression of the marathon record or best and decided that by 1990 we were pretty close to the limit. In the twenty years from 1950 to 1970 it went from 2:25 plus to either 2:09:28 or 2:08:33 depending on the accuracy of Clayton's course in Antwerp. By 1980 it was either 2:08:33 or 2:09:01. By 1990 it was 2:06:53 but there were a fair number of sub 2:10s piling up.

That's what you'd see as you approach a limit; small and infrequent increments of improvement but lots more performances that better fairly recent records. From 1990 to today the record has improved more than it did in the two deacdes previously which looks odd. Yes, money has attracted a lot of athletes who would have focused on the track in earlier years. But that's also when things like EPO came along and while it may not be true that EPO alone has accounted for all of those improvements, I too think it's naieve not to think it's played a significant role.

The drop in times were not that drastic or statistically significant; 10 years is too short a timespan to conclude anything; training has changed significantly since the 1960's; and elite marathon runners are younger today than those of the 1990's. There is no obvious and ONLY answer.

food4thought. wrote:

It is incredibly naive to believe that NO Kenyan (or other African) is doping. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it. Did humans suddenly gain some physical advantage in the last 10+ years? Heck No.

Yet the WR went from holding steady at 2:06:50 for over 10 years from 1988 to 1999, when the first guy broke 2:06, to now a sub 2:06 is required to win ANY decent size marathon almost regardless of conditions. Now that guy who was a phenomenon for breaking 2:06 is around 50th all time. Starting in 2007/8 marathon times made a drastic drop.

The money has been there for decades in big marathons, so that is not it.

Did training techniques change drastically? No, Lydiard pretty much had the system down in the 60s.

What changes so quickly in the human world? Scientific advances. It is the obvious answer and it is the ONLY answer.

please be kidding wrote:even aranesp and mircera are actually dosed in iu

moron

they are not

they come in mcg vials

imbecile

tell me how many EXACT units does 72mcg of mircera convert to ???

and an athlete would have to be a fool to use aranesp, its the most detectable form of epo available. They are never dosed in mcg

imbecile

mircera is the newest kid on the big pharma block

continuous epo receptor activator

state of the art of big pharma epo & most difficult to detect as newest

it comes in mcg vials

Their volume may be in mcg, but the dosage is done in international units

moron

how many units is 72mcg mircera

tell me so i can tell roche

and these two are typically done via infusion as opposed to simple injection.

moron

subcut is route recommended unless on haemodialysis

only an idiot goes for intravenous with risk of extensive 1st-pass liver metabolism & quick partial inactivation of such an expensive drug unless they have no other choice

Ventolin...¿are you a doctor or you're only parroting stuff that you read on the internet?

Lol, in 1950s-1970s some Africans were not allowed to read or write let alone run. A lot of Africans did not understand the sport and if they did was through the Europeans who were using the same programmes home. When the world started opening up people started moving and money became an incentive. The Ford of 1950s is not the ford of today, you get alot more luxuries today. The people get smarter and do things better than earlier. Kenyans for example 10 years ago less than 10% had telephones (landlines), in the last 10 years about 80% of the population have mobile phones. Kenyans skipped the landline telephones alltogether. 10 years ago less than 20% of Kenyans had Bank accounts, today 10 years later 50-60% of Kenyans have bank accounts and they operate a mobile phone money transfer system that the whole world is jealous about. Kenyans skipped the brick and mortar traditional banking way to impress technological banking. Kenyan runners are skipping the traditonal ways of training and doing things different than what previous generations did.