• Racer1
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova
      • Racer1
      • Renato, thanks again for the excellent information.

        I am surprised that Shaheen seems to train so hard without recovery.

        I understand that he, like most Kenyans, has spent 10+ years building a base, and of course at the peak time of his career, harder, more specific training can be done without so much damage.

        But even still, doing runs at 3:20 per kilometer as "regeneration" over hilly terrain at altitude BETWEEN sessions of very difficult fartlek (out of curiosity, how do the athletes manage this "surprise" fartlek, if they can take off in a dead sprint and have to maintain this for 5+ minutes? Isn't this training the runner to fade away badly OR to save too much in thinking that the rep will be longer than what you have planned?) seems almost impossible.
    • sub 13
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova
      • sub 13
      • 3.20/3.30 pace for 32km in very hilly courses at 2400m of altitude?
        That sounds a little to good on a training run!?

        About Lebid. You said that he is usually running many km but not fast. What kind of pace is that for a runner like him? close to 3.20-3.30 pace or more like 3.45-4.00?
        Also, does Lebid do a lot of strength and speed in his training? he has a great kick and I suppose he is working on it in training?

        Thanks Renato!
    • Renato Canova
      Coaching Legend
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to sub 13
      • Renato Canova
        Coaching Legend
      • About Sergey Lebid, his normal long run is at a pace of 3:45 per km, with only last 15 min faster. Regarding intervals on track, he usually goes for short repetitions (from 200 to 400m) at good speed (28 / 62) for many times, with very short recovery. What he never did before our collaboration was the so called "Italian Medio", that is a long continuous run from 6 to 15 km at a pace of 95% of PB in 10000m. In the case of Lebid (that has a 28:08 not "real", because can run in 27:20 when in shape)a "Medio" can be, for example, 12 km at 3:00 / 3:03 pace. We have to consider that Sergey uses to compete frequently, almost every week, and the competitions are his "Medio" training. When instead we are during the track season, and Sergey goes only for few competitions, he needs to put in his training long intervals (from 2000m to 1000m) that never used before. He started to use these distances in St. Moritz, training with the Kenyan Mark Bett, a my athlete having 12:55 and 27:02 of PB. After using this type of training, Lebid was able to beat all the National Records from 3000 to 10000m, being very competitive in meetings like Monaco and Berlin.
        When he is at home in November - December (before European Championships), he uses a lot of hills and long run on very hilly courses. He is very strong in his muscles, but is not able to stay with the leaders if the beginning of the race is very fast. I think that this problem is due to a lack of long-fast run, and is at the same time physiological and psychological problem.
        For increasing his kick, one of the workouts that he prefers is 400 fast (61) / 200 recovery in 45 / 300 fast (45) / 200 recovery in 45 / 200 fast (27) / 200 recovery in 45 / 100 sprinting (1600m in 4:40), that he repeats 5 times with 4/5 minutes recovery.
        Speaking instead about Shaheen, we must not forget that are speaking of an athlete able running in 7:53 steeple, and probably under 12:40 in 5k. If you think that he has the ability to run for 5k at 2:32 pace, and for 10k at 2:40, you understand that 3:20 is 25% slower of the 10000m pace (16.0 every 100m compared with 20.0), and this is not so hard. If we want to follow the same proportion, for a runner of 28:20 the same intensity is running at (17.0 + 4.25 = 21.25) 3:32.5, and for one of 30:00 is running at 3:45. Another thing : don't make the mistake to think that the altitude can penalize too much the pace in the case of a Kenyan living at high altitude. The difference for an athlete like Stephen or John Korir or Moses Mosop, that live normally at 2400m, in case of long run, may be of 5% compared with the same training at sea-level (3:20 in Iten = 3:10 at sea level). The best Kenyan runners in 10000m, if living at 2400 / 2700m, have difference between their PB in Nairobi and their PB at sea-level, not too big : John Korir 27:44 - 26:52 = 52.0 (5.2 per km), Paul Kosgei 27:44 - 27:21 = 23.0 (2.3 per km), Wilberforce Talel 27:46 - 27:30 = 16.0 (1.6 per km). Their parameters are not the same of European and American runners.
    • obi-two
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova
      • obi-two
      • very interesting information Renato, best poster at letsrun.
    • Mixed Fartlek
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova
      • Mixed Fartlek
      • Renato Canova wrote:
        When we speak about African runners we must think that, normally, the best athletes are able to start their official athletic careers from a level of 90% of their final performance because they are already well prepared, without official coaches, using at home the most important type of training for a distance runner: long runs (from 5 to 12-15 km), very fast.

        Through this type of training the most talented runners are able to greatly improve their ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD, building a special MAX LASS, that is very difficult to reach with Caucasian runners from western countries. This is due to a lack of natural power – endurance for the natural training done during the first 12 – 15 years of life.

        So there is no hope for a Western athlete?

        Well, America might as well give up according to the above, because unless you run to school up until age 15, you will never beat Bekele.
    • Mixed Fartlek
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Mixed Fartlek
      • Mixed Fartlek
      • bump
    • Sir Lance-alot
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Mixed Fartlek
      • Sir Lance-alot
      • Mixed Fartlek wrote:


        So there is no hope for a Western athlete?

        Well, America might as well give up according to the above, because unless you run to school up until age 15, you will never beat Bekele.
        A white American (non-East African transplant) will never beat Bekele (when at his best), period, no matter what the preparation is.....you do realize that, don't you???

        And the best East Africans' invincibility has a lot more to do with their natural genetic gifts than it has to do with whether they ran to school or not. Remember, several top Kenyans did NOT run to school or do hard training as youths, but they still are head and shoulders above our best. Why do you think that is? (and please don't say because we play nintendo, or have pro sports like football). Oh, wait, Meb got a silver medal, and he only started competing here in America, so anything is possible right.......except where is Meb from again???? Oh yeah, EAST AFRICA.

        Its in the genes.

        (and in no way am I saying that once in awhile a Ritz, or Lebid, or Mottram can't run with some East African's best. There will always be exceptions. But non-Africa's best will never regularly beat Africa's best, and the few who even have a chance to hang with them are few and far between)
    • trackhead
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Sir Lance-alot
      • trackhead
      • Sir Lance,

        Even though some did not run to and fro school, they were certainly getting a lot mroe aerobic activity in as youths than westerners. When you don't have Nintendo and cable TV you tend to be more active.

        But I agree that genetics play a strong role. Generations passing in an evironment where bipedal motion is a necessity for survival will promote that trait throughout the generations. And there is the interesting study that showed that Ethiopian hemoglobin can carry more O2 per unit than either Andean Indians or Himalayans.
    • racist viewpoints
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to trackhead
      • racist viewpoints
      • Seb Coe is still the 2nd fastest 800 meter runner EVER and more than 20 years after his races.

        Stefano Baldini has the marathon Gold medal from Athens.

        Where is your African connection?

        Genetics, other than on an individual basis, have very little to do with it.
    • trackhead
    • trackhead
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to racist viewpoints
      • trackhead
      • ``TABLE WIDTH="90%" BGCOLOR="#CCFFCC" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="4" BORDER="1"%%

        Event
        African Born Record
        Non-African Born Record
        Difference

        800m
        1:41.11
        1:41.73
        0.609%


        1500m
        3:26.00
        3:28.95
        1.347%


        3000m
        7:20.67
        7:29.34
        1.967%


        3000mSC
        7:53.63
        8:06.91
        2.727%


        5000m
        12:37.35
        12:55.76
        2.373%


        10000m
        26:20.31
        27:08.23
        2.943%


        Marathon
        2:04:56 124.933333
        2:06:05 126.0833333
        0.912%/TD>



        There's something about those high end systems from 8-26min...
    • Too early in the morning
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to trackhead
      • Too early in the morning
      • Trackhead (you idiot), why do you argue that white folks will never beat the Ethiopians at the event the Ethiopians are best suited to (the 10,000m you quoted)?

        The guy who mentioned Seb Coe is right, a white guy has been faster than all Ethiopians since the dawn of time at an event that (apparently) suits white men better.

        To put it another way: Bekele would never have beaten Seb Coe at 800m when both were at their best.

        So, what's your point?
    • Too early in the morning
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to trackhead
      • Too early in the morning
      • You really are an idiot. Do the same with the women and try and convince us that Radcliffe really must have some Ethiopian blood in her.
    • Ne-now
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to trackhead
      • Ne-now
      • I dont think its about those high-end systems but about efficency at different speeds.
        When you look at Coe,Bucher or Rodal:they had all superior speed/muscular power so they could run 50-51 sec laps with a high efficiency.At 3k-5k-10k you have to run a high speed for a longer time but those kind of speed where 400m-speed and muscular power are not such enormous factor in efficency, you have to run smooth like the East-Africans do because of their good biomechanics.In the marathon a lot of different factors affect the performance as glycogen-stores, dehydration, blood-sugar, right pacing and also that its much easier for someone with bad/moderate biomechanics to run efficiently at 4:50 than 4:20/mile, take the asian guys for example, they have no one in the 1500, 3k steeple, 5k and despite great depth no one at the top in the 10k, not only cause they are mainly interested in the marathon but also because most asians have poor mechanics for running(Takaoka is a rare exception).
    • Renato Canova
      Coaching Legend
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Ne-now
      • Renato Canova
        Coaching Legend
      • Let me give my opinion, as this is my last reply for some day, because tomorrow I'll go to Kenya again till WCCCh.
        I think that the genetical difference is not so important to justify so big differencies. I don't look at African of todays, but at white runners of 20 years ago. During the European Championships of Prague (1978), the EUROPEAN NUMBER 9 (and all were really European, not Maroccan or Algerian with French team) ran 27:41 : NUMBER 9 IN A EUROPEAN RACE. In 2004, the European n. 10 in the seasonal list (after a full year) ran 28:25.
        In the junior Italian Team 1982, we had 5 athletes under 14:00 : Mei 13:45, Carenza 13:45, Panetta 13:46, Nicosia 13:51 and Gozzano 13:58. In 2004, the 2nd Italian Junior ran 14:40, almost 1 min slower than 22 years before.
        So, what happened ? Simply, our way of life now is completely different. When we speak about "quality of life", we speak about some machine working for us, and the task of a man is only more to press a bottom. THE MODERN TREND IS TO CANCEL EVERY TYPE OF PHYSICAL FATIGUE. With this type of mentality, we cannot have young athletes prepared physically and mentally for an activity where FATIGUE IS THE BASE OF EVERY THING.
        I followed Salvatore Antibo in the period 1988-1992, being Italian responsible of 5000/10000m together his coach Gaspare Polizzi. I'm sure that the Antibo 1990 could very easy be the first runner under 27:00 in 10.000, if some other runner could run so fast. When he was 2nd in Seoul OG in 27:23, his final training in Sestriere (2050m of altitude) was 4 times 2000m (rec. 3:00) in 5:45 plus 1 x 1000m in 2:37. In 1990, the same training was 4 x 2000 in 5:28 (difference of 7.5 per km) plus 1 x 1000 in 2:31. So, it's very reasonable to think that his value at the moment was under 27:00, and, being able to finish last lap under 55.0, THE ANTIBO 90 COULD WIN A MEDAL ALSO IN OG 2004. The same for Panetta 1987 : he won World Championships in 3000 SC leading the race from the start, in 8:08 without pushing in the last furlong having more than 30m of gap, 3 days after winning silver medal in 10000m back Kipkoech.
        The problem is that now in Europe there is not Antibo and there is not Panetta, there is not Coe, Cram, Ovett, there is not Lopes and Mamede, there is not Abascal and Gonzalez, there is not Garderud (8:08 in 1976), Malinowski, Baumgartl, in Switzerland there is not Deleze and Ryffel, and the level of European Athletic is now very low in middle and long run (except Marathon). And in US, where are Ryun, Wohlhuter, Spivey, Salazar, Nenow, Shorter, Bill Rodgers and a lot of other runners ?
        If in 1982 you had 200 runners under 2:20, and 20 years later only 20, is because african runners are too strong or because our society is no more able to produce runners, because there is no more interest in this type of activity?
        Don't forget that performances in athletics are a product of social interests. Do you know some white boxeur at the moment in top specialists, after Rocky Marciano, Rocky Graziano, Gene Fullmer and others ? How many years are that no white men agree to catch some kick on the face ?
        So, the situation is very clear : if African have interest in running, involving the 50% of young people, and Western People has no interest, involving 0,0005 % of young people, of course the winners are Africans.
        In swimming, do you think that there are no African swimmers because of genetical reasons, or because they don't have pools for training ?
        In 1960-80, physiology tried to explain that the qualities of a sprinter and/or of a jumper were at the top when the age was 20-24, after had to decrease. This looking at some statistic valueting the age of finalists in OG. But, when athletics became professional, the average of the age of sprinters became 10 years older. At 30 year of age an athlete is yet young, and we have a lot of top runners around 35 years old (Gail Devers, Merlene Ottey, Drummond, the last Michael Johnson, Carl Lewis winning OG at 35, Christie, Allen Johnson and many others). So, the most important input is the social input.
        The only way for having again some white at the top is to change again the costumes of our society. But I think that in the future is easier that African change : in the big town nobody runs, and also there the interest in running decreases every year. Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania and Ethiopia recruit their runners from the Mountain areas, and is now more difficult also in those Countries to find good runners, motivated for their instinct and not only looking for the opportunity to earn good money.
    • Ne-now
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova
      • Ne-now
      • the decline of european running is one, the dominance of african runners another thing.
        There have been plenty projects trying to bring east-african athletes to other endurance sports like cycling, swimming or triathlons and guess what..they finished nowhere near the top.Not to mention Xc-Skiing where 28min 10k runners finished more than 20mins behind Daehlie in a 15k race.Or look at the Tour in Burkina Faso(i think), the best african cyclists get beaten easily by some european b-amateurs, of course this has also to do with material and stuff but before i see atleast ONE Kenyan or Ethiopian suceed in another endurance-sport than running i say its a matter of evolution-biomechanics.
    • Sir Lance-alot
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Ne-now
      • Sir Lance-alot
      • Ne-now wrote:
        the decline of european running is one, the dominance of african runners another thing....
        its a matter of evolution-biomechanics.
        EXACTLY "ne-now!" While Renato gives an excellent explanation and presentation of the demise of the non-African DISTANCE runner, this has nothing to do with the RISE of the absolute dominance of the African (mostly East African, some North African) runner. Because even if non-African runners had improved since the 80's, they would still be crushed by the Bekele's and Geb's and Tergats, etc of Africa in the 5 & 10. Yes, white runners have gone BACKWARDS as far as their depth of excellent performances in the distance events (though the occasional white superstar like Mottram, Lebid, or Ritz will always appear). But East Africans have taken their performances to levels that no amount of societal changes in non-African countries could have changed. Burn all the nintendos of the world, make life hard again for whites and guess what......still no non-African would run sub 13:00 for the 2nd 1/2 of a championship 10k. Hell, even the KENYANS couldn't come close to hanging with the Ethiopian trio that day.

        Many of the African coaches are from Europe, so its not coaching that makes the difference. Running is a simple sport. So its either drugs or genetics, PERIOD. And I HIGHLY doubt there is some grand conspiracy of drugs where 100's of East Africans are all doped to the gills (maybe a few are, but there are drug users in every country, therefore drugs would NOT explain the unbelievable depth of their performances). So it is genetics.

        Trackhead, your stats are a perfect presentation of the difference. The person that called you an idiot is just that...AN IDIOT. I think he mentioned that we take a look at Seb Coe, or maybe the women's world records. Ok, lets do that:

        Seb Coe: firstly , no one EVER said there would not be a few exceptions here and there. There are ALWAYS exceptions. The rule is: East Africans are genetically superior distance runners. Seb Coe was an exception to that. ALSO.....El G would kill him in a mile, or 3k or any other race he might have taken part in above 800. White runners seem to have an innate ability at 800. It is a VERY UNIQUE event that relies on muscular power and anerobic ability as much as endurance. The East/North Africans main advantage lies in their natural endurance ability. Lastly, according to Renato, the demise of the white runner is due to sociological reasons, ie, life has become too easy for whites. Wasn't Seb Coe middle class???? Of course he was. So Seb Coe is the result of being an EXCEPTION-AL (see the exception part) talent, who excelled at 800 and 1500 (especially 800 in the big picture of things), events that whites still do quite well at. So his example does nothing to diminish the argument that ON THE AVERAGE/IN GENERAL, East (and North to some degree) Africans are just BORN superior DISTANCE RUNNERS when compared with the rest of the world.

        You mentioned women's times: Yes, Paula Radcliffe is amazing. Again, did we ever say there would not be exceptions to the rule??? No, of course not. But bear in mind two important facts. East African women have only RECENTLY been competing at reasonable particpation levels. They need a few more years of higher participation to show what they can really do. But, ALREADY, look at what they are doing: if you look at the ALL-TIME 5000 and 10000 women's lists, you will see that 1/2, or nearly 1/2 of the top 15 times are by East Africans (mostly Ethiopians). And if you remove the VERY SUSPECT Chinese times......you are looking at a dominance of East African times in those events. And again, they have yet begun to really run. So your "look at the women's lists" doesn't defeat this argument either. And the women's lists are tainted by drug efforts more than the men's (its easier to drug a woman to extraordinary times, because with testosterone, you basically turn them into a man). East African women are starting to dominate woman's distance running, and with the exception of a Paula Radcliffe, or Benita Johnson, they too prove the rule: East Africans are genetically superior distance runners on the average.

        And Trackhead mentioned a study that showed that East Africans, EVEN AT ALTITUDE, have blood that is as oxygenated as a normal person AT SEA LEVEL. And even if you moved to altitude, or even if your recent ancestors moved to altitude, guess what? You would still not see that happen. It has happened because the Ethiopians have lived in the high-lands for millions of years, and because of that......HAVE DIFFERENT GENETICS than people from other parts of the world and have PERFECTLY adapted to their high altitude environ. Newsflash people: all people from all parts of the world at not exactly the same. PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. Some are more naturally suited for distance running, some for 800 running, some for sprinting, and some for lifting huge weights. These are facts. Its not shocking, but I guess people hate to hear it because it sounds defeatist or something. Its just reality: The East Africans are naturally superior distance runners. Where was Meb from again??? Oh yeah, East Africa. He didn't start running until he came to America, the land of plenty, of nintendo, and where coaches push hard anaerobic efforts on the kids too much, ruining them. But somehow Meb survived it all. Guess his genes had something to with it.
    • Renato Canova
      Coaching Legend
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Ne-now
      • Renato Canova
        Coaching Legend
      • Ne-now, do you know how many kenyan skiers there are ? And do you know how many bikes there are in Kenya ? So, if statistics is not only an opinion, is easy to recruit 500 top runners among a number of 10 million, is not possible to recruit 3 top skiers among a number of.... 3 athletes ! About cyclists, I'm sure that Kenyans could be good specialists, expecially on the mountains. But the fact is that, if you want to train with a bike on Kenyan roads, nobody can guarantee that you can live longer than one week before finishing your life under a lorry or a matato.
        Don't look at sports where technology is fundamental. If you don't have, you cannot be able to compete.
        But, if you have advanced technology, probably you are not able to do something without it. Running is the most natural activity, without any technology, and white people today is slave of every type of technology, for doing every thing (for example, few people are yet able to use basic mathematic without a calculator).
        Africans are only a little bit better than many years ago : the kenyan record of 800m is the same from 1984, now is yet possible to win steeple in OG with 8:05 (in 1976 8:08 from a European), only 5000 and 10000 really improved, because of changing in training systems.
        But the real problem is WHITE PEOPLE TODAY. If the interest in running (not only for fun) is limited to a very small percentage, is practically very hard to produce good runners in the future.
        Another problem is our mentality. In our Society the spots are pushing for a CHEMICAL and PHARMACOLOGICAL society. We are bombarded with a lot of FALSE infos : without integrators we cannot do anything, without supplements we cannot do any fatigue, without tablets we cannot lose fat, without PH we lose our memory. We cannot live without a lot of substances taken from the extern.
        This way of thinking makes a man very weak, and not confident in HIS NATURAL RESOURCES. When we read a lot of posts on letsrun, we understand that, for a great part of american runners, IF YOU RUN FAST IS BECAUSE YOU ARE DOPED. Do you think that this is the best way for approaching top results ? I can guarantee that African runners, if have a good coach, never have any idea of doping (not only, but every substance for helping your performance). UGALI, MILK, VEGETABLES, MEAT of cow or of CHICKEN, that's all. And when they see white athletes using some tablets, they say "here is the main reason because you are not competitive : your lack of UGALI and MILK, that for us is LIFE".
    • Still standing
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Sir Lance-alot
      • Still standing
      • Sir Lance, you've argued yourself into a corner. According to your rant, the western world is wasting its collective time in distance running and racing. You have given up and believe it is impossible to be competitive at the elite level. Some of us have no intention of giving up, but look to the exceptional people to show it is still possible to be competitive with total commitment.

        You really have no reason to be here any more. For, having given up completely, you think there is nothing that can be done.

        Close the door on your way out... and ask trackhead if he wants to join you.
    • trackhead
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Still standing
      • trackhead
      • Let me make something clear: if you have America as active as Kenya -- you'll start to see something big at 5 and 10000m. Obviously we have talent, but it's hard to play catch up.