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Bjorn wrote:
Some say Lopes was a 56 400m runner. I think he did 56 last la of a ca 27.20 10k while Mamede finish in 54 last lap.
Ah, no.
Mamade ran either 56 or 58 his last lap and Lopes was either 60 or 62.
Their final times were 27:13 and 27:17.
That was only one out of 2 times that Mamede finished ahead of Lopes, who won the other 9 times they met.
Would it be acceptable to put sprints at the end of a pace workout?
For example, if you run 5x 2000m with 3 minutes between.
Would it be acceptable to do 10 hill sprints after this?
Or would this be counterproductive, and would it be better to do the sprints another day.
Thanks very much.
Bjorn wrote:
Racer 1
You must remember that 11.8 in 100m for Haile is not the same as a sprinter. He will loose much in the start. I read from an interwiew that he did 49 in 400m.
I belive that evry distance runner who can do around 23,5 in 400m also Canova pupil N. Kemboi
Kenedy Numbers I found from an American book were he was interwievd.
Also Marius Bakken has PB of 49 400m and 1.51 800m (but some time ago)
Ofen the best distance runners (white) start as sprinter and 800m runner. You need both Speed and Endurane.
Some say Lopes was a 56 400m runner. I think he did 56 last la of a ca 27.20 10k while Mamede finish in 54 last lap.
Develop Speed and endurance always, then conect them with speed endurance before track season. For 400- Marathon
Bjorn, 11.8 is with a running start.
As for Kennedy, what book did you read this in? What article was Gebrselassie's PB listed?
memory fading wrote:
Ah, no.
Mamade ran either 56 or 58 his last lap and Lopes was either 60 or 62.
Their final times were 27:13 and 27:17.
That was only one out of 2 times that Mamede finished ahead of Lopes, who won the other 9 times they met.
No. Antonio or Renato gave the numbers as Mamede, 52.8, Lopes, 56 on this thread. I'd go with them as authorities (Antonio being a Portuguese coach).
question for Renato wrote:
Would it be acceptable to put sprints at the end of a pace workout?
For example, if you run 5x 2000m with 3 minutes between.
Would it be acceptable to do 10 hill sprints after this?
Or would this be counterproductive, and would it be better to do the sprints another day.
Thanks very much.
Renato gave some programs of Shaheen and Kwalia and they mix short hill sprints with long intervals for "strength endurance."
For instance, Shaheen last June did 8 x 800m averaging 2:01 and between each repetition he did 4 x 60m short sprint uphill (2:00 rest after 800, 2:00 rest after each hill sprint).
That means total 8 x 800m, 32 x 60m uphill sprint.
Sounds like a rough session.
are you sure there was 2 minutes rest after each hill sprint? think about how long that workout would take
mdr wrote:
are you sure there was 2 minutes rest after each hill sprint? think about how long that workout would take
Hey, I didn't write it. Renato did:
"
SHAHEEN
22 Jun 04 (earth Track in Chepkoilel)
8 x 800m with 4 x 60m sprint uphill between each test
(2:00 rec. after test, the same after sprints)
• 2:03.0 – 2:00.9 – 2:00.3 – 2:01.4 – 2:01.3 – 2:02.1 – 2:00.2 – 2:00.5
KWALIA
22 Jun 04 (earth Track in Chepkoilel)
4 x 800m with 4 x 60m sprint uphill between each test [2 min] +
5 x 500m [4 min]with 200m running + 100m bounding + 200m running
• 2:02.8 – 2:01.0 – 2:00.0 – 2:02.6
• 1:09.6 (26.2 + 16.8 + 26.6)
• 1:10.4 (26.0 + 17.6 + 26.8)
• 1:10.5 (27.2 + 16.6 + 26.7)
• 1:09.8 (25.9 + 18.2 + 26.7)
• 1:07.8 (26.2 + 15.4 + 26.2)
10 Jul 04 (St. Moritz)
2 sets of 6 x 1000m [1:30] After every set, 12 x 60m sprint uphill.
• 2:50.0 – 2:51.0 – 2:47.4 – 2:46.3 – 2:45.0 – 2:41.8
• 2:47.6 – 2:46.0 – 2:46.6 – 2:47.0 – 2:43.8 – 2:40.8
17 Jul 04 (St. Moritz)
3 x 2000m + 1 x 1000m with 6 x 60m sprint uphill after every test
• 5:36.4 – 5:39.2 – 5:37.2 – 2:27.8
"
It is a long session, but remember, these guys are world class runners. They do not have to go hop off to a 9-5 job in the middle of the day. There is time. YOu need the long recoveries after the sprints to keep it predominantly an alactic workout.
Antonio is definitely the authority, however where did he ever say such nonsense.
Show me the thread and the link.
I know very well they did not run those times that you said.
Racer1 wrote:
programs of Shaheen and Kwalia and they mix short hill sprints with long intervals for "strength endurance."
For instance, Shaheen last June did 8 x 800m averaging 2:01 and between each repetition he did 4 x 60m short sprint uphill (2:00 rest after 800, 2:00 rest after each hill sprint).
Racer1,
Thanks for the reminder.
Renato's program for Kemboi did the same.
Renato -- thank you very much for sharing.
Racer 1
Maybe you are right and I am wrong but her are my sorces
100meter
Innsendt av Kjell Mahogny,
Hello Haile!You are simply the best!There is nobody in the world that can compare with you!You are THE superman!But how fast can you run 100 meter?And is there any Dromedars in Ethiopia?Good luck in Bislett!Kjell Mahogny
I can do 100 meters at 11.80. Yes we have many camels and dromedars.
The book I read about Kennedy was a book interwived a lot of amercinan top runners. I think it was called somthing like run with the Elites(best) or something like that.
Yes 2:00 mins rest or even 3:00 sometimes. The workouts take a long time. I usually have my girls do them during a 70 min run. Full recovery, max intensity, great results. It's time well spent.
As for circuits on some other college girls I am helping out with (not my "official" athletes). Last year one ran 5:57 for the mile. We worked on strength in the form of hill sprints and did some circuits that were watered down from what Renato gave us. Everything is progressive throughout the build up and through the season. We also worked at 80% of a goal mile pace for specific endurance. She opened her season with 5:25 and the next week ran the 600,800 double in 1:40 alone (33,33,34) and 2:23 (36,37,36,34) with about 15 mins rest between the races. Now these aren't world class but the improvment is very solid. The other girls I am working with are similarly running better then they ever have.
I would give the credit to this thread and the other one by Antonio awhile back. THANKS
PurdueGrad
It's of sure accettable to put sprints after a workout, but my advice is not to use this system like normal system of training. I prefer to put sprints uphill after long run (after aerobic training, not involving too much fast fibres) also if some time I put sets of very short sprints (for example, 6 x 60m uphill) between one interval and another, when I go for long intervals (4 x 3000m + 1 x 1000m with 6 x 60m sprints among each one).
Anyway, everything is possible. The most important thing is to think that is important what you do, not what you don't do. So, respecting a good balance in training, you can use the biggest percentage of training in aerobic way, because the intensity is lower and you don't need long recovery, and, when intensity is higher, you can reduce the number of workouts. Training is like a pyramid, the big base is aerobic, then, increasing the speed, you go for less time and have to use with less frequency this type of workouts. Different is the situation of short sprints, that, not provoking high lactate, have only a neuromuscolar mean. You can go often for this type of workout, without any problem and without any interference with other type of training. This is the main type of training for the biomechanical system of an athlete, but don't forget that the endurance (specific or general) is something regarding the bioenergetical and enzymatic system.
Renato Canova wrote:
Training is like a pyramid, the big base is aerobic, then, increasing the speed, you go for less time and have to use with less frequency this type of workouts. Different is the situation of short sprints, that, not provoking high lactate, have only a neuromuscolar mean. You can go often for this type of workout, without any problem and without any interference with other type of training. This is the main type of training for the biomechanical system of an athlete, but don't forget that the endurance (specific or general) is something regarding the bioenergetical and enzymatic system.
Renato,
Why can one not accomplish BOTH agendas( improve "biomechanical"/neuromuscular system abilities AND "bioenergetical and enzymatic system" abilities(endurance/aerobic capabilities) with the following workout?
A workout consisting of repeat, "fast" but controlled , 150m sprints, with short & EASY walk/jog recovery intervals, done over and over again for....let's say an hour? The key to such a workout also would be: keep Heart Rate below LASS/AT level during entire workout. Let's say, approximately, the 150 sprints would bring the HR up to 165 at the end of the repeat, and it would remain there during the beginning the rest interval. Then during the remainer of the rest interval, the HR would drop, rather rapidly, to about, let's say, low 140's. At that point, the runner start another 150m interval. And over and over again.
In such a workout, the HR would never raise to the level of LASS/AT level, and never sink below 70% of HR max (HR average during this workout would probably be about 155). Basically, HR would always be in the range of 70-82% HR max during the whole hour. The sprints would be at, let's say, approximately 5k race pace (or therabouts, a little faster, a little slower is possible), ie, controlled. With such controlled (not near all-out), short repeats, the recovery (interval) time would also be short (especially short if the athletes walks/jogs VERY slowly during this recovery).
So again, couldn't such a workout achieve BOTH goals( working both "biomechanical"/neuromuscular system abilities AND "bioenergetical and enzymatic system" abilities, ie, endurance/aerobic capabilities) ?
I am not Renato but i will try to answer. What your talking about is different trainiing. It is closer to Antonio's intermitten training. The hill sprints are done at MAX INTENSITY. The hills have nothing to do with heart rate except the elasticity of the heart at max intensity makes it more elastic. When you fire your system at 100% it also keeps the brain nervous system connection. It teaches the brain and body to work better.You are strengthening the body specific to the activity that you do. Closer to weights depending on the resistance. Of course there is no absolute but the hill sprints are the alatic system done in a safe way. You are looking to recruit the max. number of muscle fibers so you have the capacity to work all your fibers at max. intensity. The only way to strengthen and recruit the max. fibers is at MAX intensity. It makes the stress on fibers at lesser intensities easier. The thing to remember is you need it all this is just one componet and you hopefully will train the other systems as well. That is why Renato uses so many different intensities with relation to race pace. I hope that helps.
Probably my reply is not fully connected with your question, but I want to try to explain why, training specific endurance, you can improve in your speed. The first question is : what the speed is ? Is your max speed (for example, 11.8 for 100m for Gebre) or is "relative max speed" connected with your event ?
Personally I think that speed is every thing faster of 10% of the event speed. So, if you are a runner of 800m in 1:44, your race speed is 13.0 every 100m. 10% of 13.0 is 1.3, 13.0 - 1.3 = 11.7. When you run in 11.7 you go for SPEED, and the fact that you can run 10.5 or 11.0 is not important, because important is to run at 12.5 speed longer possible. Of course, the same speed has different goals in relation with the distance. 11.7 for 100m is speed, 11.7 x 3 = 35.1 for 300m is speed endurance, 11.7 x 4 = 46.8 for 400m is the BASIC SPEED for the final distance.
For a Marathon runner of 2:06 (3:00 per km), 110% of the speed is 2:42 per km. Of sure Baldini never run faster than 2:42, but about 3:00 he tries to develop his SPECIFIC ENDURANCE. For example, starting with 4 x 5000m in 15:00 rec. 1000m in 3:30, the final workout can be 4 x 5000 always in 15:00, but recovering 1000m in 3:10, eventually adding a final 2000m in 5:45. THIS IS A DEVELOPMENT OF SPECIFIC ENDURANCE.
Now, I want to give an example.
You run 10 times 400m in 60.0, recovering 1 minute, reaching a final level of lactate of 12 mmol.
After a mix of different type of training, 2 months later, you become able to run not 10 times, but 12 times in 60.0, reaching the same level of lactate (12 mmol). Do you think that, when you run 12 times, after 10 times the level of lactate is already 12 mmol ? Of course not, may be about 10. But, if you want to go for ONLY 10 TIMES at a final level of 12 mmol, you can run no more in 60.0, but in 59 or less. SO, TRAINING SPECIFIC ENDURANCE AT A SPEED THAT IS NOT MAXIMAL, YOU CAN IMPROVE YOUR RELATIVE SPEED.
But, if you are able running 1500m (that is a short distance) in 3:43 when you run 10 times in 60.0, you become able running in 3:40 or less when you are able running in 59. AND THIS WITHOUT USING MAX SPEED.
Of course, you must use continuous run at high intensity for 20-30 min, and also short sprints for training your neuromuscolar system (the answer of BONO is very correct).
This is the reason because, in the modern training, long run at low intensity is useless, and max lactic speed also. And this is the reason because I use so much hills of different length at max intensity.
Renato, what about Racer1's Q:
RENATO CANOVA WROTE:
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When we speak about African runners we must think that, normally, the best athletes are able to start their official athletic careers from a level of 90% of their final performance because they are already well prepared, without official coaches, using at home the most important type of training for a distance runner: long runs (from 5 to 12-15 km), very fast.
Through this type of training the most talented runners are able to greatly improve their ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD, building a special MAX LASS, that is very difficult to reach with Caucasian runners from western countries. This is due to a lack of natural power – endurance for the natural training done during the first 12 – 15 years of life.
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Are you saying that all hope is lost for Caucasian/Western runners?
Godfrey Kiprotich said in his interview today he could walk the roads of Iten and find 250 people able to win European races and many able to break world records.
What is your thought for the Western runner to catch them, if he has not grown up running barefoot to school 10 miles each day?
Folks esp Racer 1, I know you have lots to say but please try to keep your posts short and few to make it easier for Renato to browse and reply.
The connection in Iten is very very bad. It is like a piece of 'wet string' - believe me i have tried it.
Thank you for understanding
Thanks Renato (and Bono).
Both your answers are useful. I do understand your points (I think), that one should focus on different systems with different workouts (i.e., achieve different objectives with different workouts). Because if one runs at an in-between intensity too often, one accomplishes neither objective fully. This I understand, but appreciate the emphasis.
But I do still believe it it possible to achieve more than one objective per workout. For instance, in the workout I described, one is achieving aerobic endurance (an hour at between 70-80% max HR) AND specific speed endurance, ie, LOTS of fast running at race pace or better. I think most runners look at a moderate aerobic run as ALWAYS being steady, without any very easy/slow parts. And if they run any type of fartlek or interval type workout, they automatically push the pace of the fast parts for too long and too hard to the point where it becomes a very hard workout (either a lactate threshhold workout or even above, a lactate clearance workout). But if one keeps the repeats short (100-150) and the rest intervals EASY (VERY slow jog or even walk), one can run fast(working the neuromuscular paths near race-pace), but not push the intensity of the biochemical systems (lactate threshold is never reached).
So again, it is an a-lactic, fully aerobic workout full of LOTS of faster running (faster compared to what most do during an a moderate aerobic effort).
This was the bread and butter of Igloi's runners, and it produced lots of champions.
Renato,
Bono and others, thank you for your informative responses.
My intention was to do the sprints after my session of 10x 1k this morning. But then I was feeling a bit tired, as it has been very warm this week, and instead did an easy 3km to warm down, with 30km total for the session.
In the meantime I decided to do the sprints after my recovery running tomorrow, and am happy to see Renato say the same is his preference.
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Move over Mark Coogan, Rojo and John Kellogg share their 3 favorite mile workouts
Mark Coogan says that if you could only do 3 workouts as a 1500m runner you should do these
Matt Choi was drinking beer halfway through the Boston Marathon