Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?
A few points for Wello:
wrong dude, the komen workout described by Kennedy:
3:54-2:53-1:54-55, yes that is a difference and its a big difference to the Gebrselassie workout as this is only half the volume at the same speed(and at sealevel).
My source is Marius Bakken who spoke directly to Kennedy. I pick Marius's direct conversation as more reliable than Kennedy's admitted uncertainty in an interview (he said "I think it was... not 'I'm certain it was' "). Further, that 1600/1200/800/400 workout was done more than once. The times I gave were the FASTEST ones hit, not the average.
Regardless, it is remarkable. And you must account the accumulated fatigue of other hard sessions of the week.
Now you tell me how hard a 3:51 mile in workout is and Gebrselassie does 9,6km of intervals at 3:55-pace....
The point is i have a friend who does regular 1k reps on the road in 2:30 and his 1500m best is 4:01, the distance of the reps were not accurate + downhill factor so to say "but Coe did 6x800m in 1:50 with 2 sec rest" is worthless.From his log prior to the 84 games:30x200m~27/28sec, 6x800m in 2:00 with 3min rest(thats "a bit" easier than 6 in 1:50 with 45sec rest), 6x400 in 52secs,...normal workouts.
I am going to go with the sources themselves (namely, what Coe actually SAID he did, not what a message board poster a WANTS TO BELIEVE HE DIDN'T DO).
I trust Coe over you any day on what Coe did in a workout, the same as I trust Dr. Kostre and Gebrselassie's biographer over your misinformed opinion.
If you want to be unshakably confident in falsehoods and stupidities, that is your option. A poor one, but still your option.
hahaha, YOU should read more carefully
I find humor only in the fact that YOU didn't read more carefully.
stop acting like a 25-year old virgin
And so we come to the all-important, seldom dispensed with, personal attack of an unknown responder. The readers will observe that Wello does not know me, has never met me, would not recognize me if I tripped him in the street, does not know my age, my experience with running, or even the minutest datum of my life as to entitle him a wild miss like his guess above.
But if flinging mistaken insults is your way of admitting you have no argument and you cling to foolish frustrations without basis in fact, I read you loud and clear.
I motion we adopt Mike Bautista's proposal and talk about training, not making wrong guesses and attacks at people unknown to ourselves.
1)i posted the link to the Kennedy-training, you won't find a better source so read carefully.
Marius wrote on his site:"Kennedy told me... then workout went something like..."
Read carefully, read carefully, read the interview with Kennedy..
2)Yes Coe said that but again:This workout was not done on the track, all his similar workouts on the track as the ones i posted are much slower/easier than that.
If you really believe that this was an accurate workout you are probably not a runner and cant understand what kind of endurance 6x800m in 1:50 with 45sec rest requires.
3)What?Personal attack?This is a message board and has nothing to do with reality, Racer1 isnt a name , your posts indicated that you dont have any sense for world-class or distance running-training=foolish, no matter if you are a 1:42 man or a couch potatoe.
If you feel attacked by what someone posts on a message board then you really have some problems....
Wello, I think you make a good point about the Addis workout. Why would the 1200's be run faster than the 800's?
Perhaps the writer made a mistake. I think maybe the 1200's might have been run in 3.05 rather than 2.55.
"no matter if you are a 1:42 man or a couch potatoe"
Dan Quayle, why are you posting on letsrun.com?
I agree, the workout seems a bit far fetched, but then again, Im not Geb or Bekele, so I dont know what they can do. None the less, what can be taken from this is that these guys train hard as shit. Theres much more to gain by looking into their mentality and desire to succeed that prompts them to work this hard than whether a reported workout is off by a few seconds. And for christs sake, stop yelling at each other. You all are getting your panties in a bunch because one guy feels that the workout is either incorrect or Geb is a shitty racer, or if Coe really did 6x800 in 1:50?? Who cares!
Wello, the entire premise of your argument is your attempting to discredit the workouts of elite runners that have come directly from their own mouths or that of witnesses.
And somehow, when I point this out, you equate me with being a fool. How is it that I can be a fool reporting fact and you intelligent spewing uninformed opinion?
And you deny the existence of personal attack and in the next breath tell me I am foolish and am not a runner. To say this is superbly stupid. Would a non-runner spend time posting on an 800+ post training thread? I think not.
Wello, please relax, thank you :D
I wonder where Renato Canova and Antonio Cabral are right now? Why do you guys think Sergey Lebid hasn't performed that well in recent World XC Champs?
I can't figure out why you guys won't just let this thread die
michael, take your own advice and stop using those gay faces everytime you post. you would think that someone who is so obsessed with running would actually break 19 in a road race.
what gay faces are you talking about =^..^=
Why so upset about the face? Ok I'll rest from that if it bothers you hehe
to end that discussion:go on a track and run 6x800 with 45 sec rest faster than your 1500m PB-Pace then tell us how it was.
go through the traininglogs Renato has posted, there you can find the training of a 7:53/12:48 guy, read that.
The 6x800m workout in 1.50 was sets on an undulating valley road in road shoes.
If anybody think he did that workout on the track, then he doesnt know a shit about running.
If anybody could do such a workout then the world record would be around 1.32!!
Did you ever train on the Rivelin Valley road?
I can't figure out why you guys won't just let this thread die
I can't figure out why on earth, if you hate this thread, you are posting on it? Are you stupid?
About intermittent training:
Even for 5,000 meter runners, it is alright to use just 150's (2 sets of 5 x 150 @ 800m race pace, 25 secs. rest between, longer between sets, as an example)?
That's what I saw on Shaheen's schedule.
Renato, how is Qatar?
Renato, I have an additional question as well. I recall you saying that you do not believe in "training for an event" but regardless, do you have any example programs of training for a miler/1500m runner both in the basic period (that I prepare right now, before outdoor track in the spring) and the main racing season?
Surely there are some types of training milers use tht 800 runners or 5000 runner do not, and probably the basic period is slightly different.
Several interesting points brought up in this discussion:
"In 1999, Christopher Koskei was not in the team till last minute, also if Kenya could put in steeple 4 athletes because Wilson Boit Kipketer had a Wild Card because World Champion 97. So, Christopher trained with me in S. Moritz for two months, without going in Residential Camp. He had also to compete in Military Ch, only one week before World Championships. He went to Seville with a ticket payed by the sponsor Puma, not by Kenyan Federation. He ran 14 races of steeple during last 41 days before WCh, as already he had contracts signed with organizers. So, it was very hard for me to manage his training, but at the end of every thing, HE WAS THE ONLY GOLD MEDAL FOR KENYA."
I would love to see what Koskei's training looked like before the Championships. 14 races in 41 days? As I remember it, Renato said that Shaheen, before joining his camp, used the schedule Renato gave his brother Christopher Koskei to improve the World Junior record in the steeple. How is it that Shaheen can improve the record using training designed for someone racing 14 times in 41 days? That's more than 2 races every week for 6 weeks straight. Insane.
"...one thing is to prepare your ENDURANCE (that is an enzymatic problem), another thing to prepare your muscles to work (that is a mechanical problem). Is completely useless to have a car with a very powerful engine, having a lot of problems in the wheels."
Of this I ask; how can you know if it is your aerobic and cardiovascular system ("breathing") or your leg power ("muscles") that limit you at any particular time? In hard workouts the runner can sometimes have chest burning but legs feeling well, sometimes legs burning but breathing controlled, and sometimes both bad. What to train then?
This speaking about the Kenyan trials:
As Gebre himself said, "I have to thank Kenyan Federation for Kenyan trials, that are my first allied".
I read all the articles on this site and others each day about Gebrselassie and other elites and I never saw this quote. I wonder does Renato have access to the Ethiopian camp or has contact with Gebrselassie and others for this and other quotes (like his marathon time; Renato said at 16 he ran 3:06, others have said 2:42, others 2:48).
. Every 2 years, I take a long period (may be 4-5 months) during which the athletes train only for increasing volume and efficiency, without nothing specific. This is the case of next year 2006, when the Qatari have like main goal Asian Games in Doha in December.
I think this is also very interesting and I wonder what the specifics look like of this period and the justification for it. No competitions? No hard training? Mileage and strides and hills alone?
[/quote] Instead, regarding 4-6 km continuous run at 95-98% (of course, 95% is for 6 km, 98% for 4 km) I confirm what I wrote. In your example, 95% is a pace of (2:36 = 156 sec, 5% of the pace is 7.8 sec per km = 2:43.8) and for 6 km this is a final time of 16:22.8 passing at 5 km in 13:39, very normal for an athlete able running in 13:00. The same case for 4 km at 98% (that is 2:39.2 per km) : 4 km in 10:36.8 are absolutely normal for a top athlete, going at 3000m in 7:57.6.
Our goal is not to improve AnT, but to create a special MAX LASS (or OBLA, if you prefer) that is the key of the specific endurance at high intensity. [/quote]
I do not agree with this. It is not easy for an athlete capable of 13:00 to do in training 6 km passing 5km in 13:39 and going for another 1,000m. I do not know anyone for whom this would be easy to do on a regular basis and recover. Look at Bob Kennedy. At his best, a 12:58 runner twice, and many, many times in the 13:02-13:08 range. Yet at the beginning, end, and sometimes the middle of the season he might wind up with a 13:30-13:40 race. This is a race, with spikes, a cheering crowd, a fast European meet, and all the adrenaline of a race atmosphere. The same athlete is then expected, in a workout in training shoes, no crowd, no fast pacemakers, perhaps not even a track surface, to run almost the equivalent of a little slower than a race time and keep going for another 1,000m. I cannot see the benefit of this workout. To work at the race pace, why not break this work into intervals? 98% of the race speed for longer the distance of the race seems counterproductive to improve any system, almost like a milder type of race. The time could be that of a "bad" race instead of a workout. I can adjust these times for other 5km runners I know slower and many would not be able to do this regularly without the sensation of racing which requires good recovery and should be done sparingly for good performance.