Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

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  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: runnerfromhell
    Forum Index
    We were discussion what are the best training, if the El Guerrouj or if that´s Sebastian Coe or Mr. X.

    When Rui Lopes did change for what´s a considered "poor schedule" an average training schedule profile, to a "rich on" - in a top class standard - lots of volume, lots of doubles, lots of intensity "magic" workouts - that didn´t work at all. Just to remember you that i´m not against mileage, or intensity or LT or everything else, but a few times if you aren´t in that category that´s like Peter´s principle. You did reach your limits, verey new extra load have no effect or the opposite effect. Thus a few tims less is optimal and more is wrong. It depends of the trinomium - individual, training, talent.

    If you had the knowledge you have today what would you have changed in his training?

    I couldn´t change nothing because the runner run away for better training facilities and a better contract. I have a friend that´s a master in Physical Education that did his own thesis about this case. He did get the conclusion that after he stay away from me it was mistake to push him too hard too soon with 22-24 years old. He would need to wait until 27-28 years old and then he will get Lopes and Mamede records - but who is able to be patient and to wait so long?
    Only a Carlos Lopes.

    <<<..while training LT runs very frequently you reach your top too early to soon, but after that ther´s the risk that your progression ends there, after a couple of seasons"

    <<...you say Alberto C trains between 2.57-3.12, never slower than 3.15. That's LT-trainng, why is he doing it if it's BAD? I don't understand.......>>

    Ok, i thanks this question.

    Now, look... Alberto did start that training with 29 years old just after we decide to move his career with the the marathon event as the target goal, after ten years of maturation in shorter run distances events.

    We taught "That´s now or never - let´s take the risk, afyter the 30´s ther´s no return". Ther´s no look back, ther´s no more time to wait for base building. And besides Lt training is quite the "Race Pace" specifics for the marathon. But this have also a justification in Alberto physical characteristics. He hates to train slowly, he recover so well that he doesn´t need easy receover runs. We don´t consider to train slower than slower 3:15 a training session.
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: tuna
    Forum Index
    You are right, but did not pretend to mention the Olympics - i mention the duels they both took several times in German-USA meetings that Prefontaine did lost them all.
  • Tinman
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
    Forum Index
    Antonio:

    Please share your interpetation of Noel Tamini's work on the Van Aaken method. Thank you, sir. Tinman
  • Hodgie-san
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
    Forum Index
    Antonio say:

    >When Rui Lopes did change for what´s a considered \"poor schedule\" an average training schedule profile, to a \"rich on\" - in a top class standard - lots of volume, lots of doubles, lots of intensity \"magic\" workouts - that didn´t work at all.<

    Antonio,

    It is simple to see what his problem may have been. This athlete was attempting to \"do EVERYTHING at one time.\"

    This is a very common mistake from those athletes who feel that while \"base building\" they will \"lose their speed.\"

    If he had cut way back on the intensity while buiding his base & increasing his miles he may have reaped the benefits with a body much better prepared for intense work.

    Many athletes who race during the base period run personal best times without running ANY intense workouts. They are simply \"fitter athletes\" able to maintain a fast pace that they never could before.

    There is no magic workout involved only PATIENCE on the part of the athlete. Athlete lets the intense running \"come to them.\" The body \"knows\" when it is ready. Instinct over science or arranged schedules.
  • This is just incorrect
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Hodgie-san
    Forum Index
    Bump.

    We cannot have this thing on page 4.

    C'mon people, a little more vigilance.
  • tesseract
    registered
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: This is just incorrect
    Forum Index
    Hey,


    What is it you are talking about on page 4?


    Tom
  • trackhead
    registered
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: tesseract
    Forum Index
    I believe it's in reference to this thread being on page four of the forum.
  • zoom
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Hodgie-san
    Forum Index
    truth at last!

    Hodgie-san wrote:

    Antonio say:

    >When Rui Lopes did change for what´s a considered "poor schedule" an average training schedule profile, to a "rich on" - in a top class standard - lots of volume, lots of doubles, lots of intensity "magic" workouts - that didn´t work at all.<

    Antonio,

    It is simple to see what his problem may have been. This athlete was attempting to "do EVERYTHING at one time."

    This is a very common mistake from those athletes who feel that while "base building" they will "lose their speed."

    If he had cut way back on the intensity while buiding his base & increasing his miles he may have reaped the benefits with a body much better prepared for intense work.

    Many athletes who race during the base period run personal best times without running ANY intense workouts. They are simply "fitter athletes" able to maintain a fast pace that they never could before.

    There is no magic workout involved only PATIENCE on the part of the athlete. Athlete lets the intense running "come to them." The body "knows" when it is ready. Instinct over science or arranged schedules.
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Hodgie-san
    Forum Index
    Hodgie-san

    I agree with you. We may be able to introduce all specific training progressively.
    Of course that Rui Lopes by doing more than 75% of his training volume in Lt paces and faster, he did a good performance 13:36, but is what I always say – so young and he is no more margin of progress. That´s what happen actually with top class runners – I mean not Africans, Those who insist dramatically in Lt runs (that 4 to 6 to 8 sessions in Lt pace) they are reducing their improvement period.
    I post a little study about top Portuguese 17– that was done by an enquiry of their coaches of the Portuguese best runners (top class) and we are asking questions concerning their careers and I include the ages, the performances and the amount of Lt percent in the total training volume. It´s up to you to take the conclusions – but I think that’s notorious that those who did longer careers and stay in the top longerr and are in the top of the rankings are those that do LT workouts with MODERATION wwekly frequency, not those who do more LT training. I could go on and on, because we did the same inquiry to another group, that are just national class – slower than 13:45 and slower than 28:30. 2nd Portuguese class. In a later post I will include that. You will see that those that never reach international class, despite they are talent runners – BUT THEY DO MORE LT training that the top Portuguese, and also the time that it takes from national class and best career PB is shorter.

    Thus, among Portuguese the inquire I take a few conclusions

    - All do some Lt training to some extend most of them they prefer continuos runs as a workout format, but there are also those that uses Lt runs with intervals.

    - the runners that do less LT percent have reach the top, but relating to their physical capacity their LT runs are in higher paces than the classic anaerobic threshold – they are really continuous runs with great LT concentration, but they do that less frequently than the other group. Carlos Lopes is the icon of that style – fast runs, a few days a week, but not a great total average in the total mileage. (this last data: LT “pace” and LT 2Weekly frequency” I don´t post because that´s too extend but we did ask also in the inquiry)

    -

    16 TOP CLASS PORTUGUESE RUNNERS (from 1/ to 16/) IN THE LAST DECADES

    1/
    A/age that training starts :18
    B/age of first performance of national class:20
    C/ age of top career performance:28
    E/best career PB:10000m - 27’48.00”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class): 8
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 12.5%+25%

    2/
    A/age that training starts :15
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:29
    E/best career PB:10000m - 27’50.00”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class): 5
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 7%+25%

    3/
    A/age that training starts:12
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:27
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’22.70”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 3
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 10%+27%

    4/
    A/age that training starts:14
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:24
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’15.62”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 25%+25%

    5/
    A/age that training starts:17
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:24
    E/best career PB:10000m - 28’06.00”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 47%+47%

    6/
    A/age that training starts:14
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:24
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’26.22”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 32%+32%

    7/
    A/age that training starts:17
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:37
    E/best career PB:10000m - 27’17.48”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 12
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 5%+15%


    8/
    A/age that training starts:18
    B/age of first performance of national class:29
    C/ age of top career performance: 31
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’21.92”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 2
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 42%+35%

    10/
    A/age that training starts:16
    B/age of first performance of national class:23
    C/ age of top career performance:23
    E/best career PB:10000m - 28’02.20”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 18%+27%

    11/
    A/age that training starts:17
    B/age of first performance of national class:23
    C/ age of first performance of national class:24
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’18.29”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 1
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 33%+33%

    12/
    A/age that training starts:17
    B/age of first performance of national class:25
    C/ age of top career performance:25
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’24.50”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 45%+45%

    13/
    A/age that training starts:12
    B/age of first performance of national class:26
    C/ age of top career performance:30
    E/best career PB:10000m - 28’10.40”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 4
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 15%+20%

    14/
    A/age that training starts:24
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:34
    E/best career PB:10000m - 27’12.47”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 10
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 12%+15%

    15/
    A/age that training starts:14
    B/age of first performance of national class:22
    C/ age of top career performance:29
    E/best career PB:10000m - 28’10.20”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 5
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 47%+47%

    16/
    A/age that training starts:16
    B/age of first performance of national class:22
    C/ age of top career performance:22
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’07.70”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 50%+50%

    If I would post the next list – that of Portuguese runners from just national class you would see that they do more LT train than the top international class, and they reach the top quickly but soon they stop to improve.
  • PurdueGrad
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
    Forum Index
    Very interesting Antonio! Can you also provide total running volume for each of your examples and if possible the number of sessions run per week (120K on 13 runs ...)
  • Hodgie-san
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
    Forum Index
    Antonio,

    That is an ineresting study. What I find that is different among todays athletes is the necessity to PLAN "tempo runs" or "LT Runs"

    In my day as an athlete (I am now nearly age 50) I rarely if ever planned this type of run, but I knew that my body was progressing with the consistent running that I was doing when many of my runs became "up tempo"

    When you become more fit as a result of the day to day "run as you feel" running your body will begin to beg you to change gears, work the hills & challenge yourself more. That is when you are ready for more intense work & racing. The amount of preparation is unique to each individual and cannot be had by looking at pre-arranged schedules developed by well meaning coaches.

    Those schedules become important as a guide , later when the athlete is ready. That is simply what I take away from Lydiard, his influence. Though if you view my running logs on my website you would probably say I did not prepare as Lydiard outlined.

    Lydiard provided all the "clues" I needed.

    I believe that it is a natural progression where the athlete learns to read their body, how it is feeling.

    Thanks for your contributions on this board!

    http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/
  • runningart2004
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Hodgie-san
    Forum Index
    As a reply to Antonio...

    I think it's misleading to state the % miles at LT per week. Let's say we have 3 runners, one(A) running an average of 80 miles a week over the course of a year, one(B) running an average of 100 miles a week over the course of a year, one(C) running an average of 120 miles a week over the course of a year.

    Each runs twice weekly 5 mile runs at LT plus a 10 miler at just slower than LT. For runner A this would be 18.75%, runner B this would be 15%, runner C this would be 12.5%.
  • fred
    registered
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: runningart2004
    Forum Index
    Might as well ask Marius how many miles at LT to get to the
    13:06. In the past it was 3 ten to 12 milers at LT. Did he
    cut back?
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: PurdueGrad
    Forum Index
    Now that´s second group/class/category
    16 NATIONAL CLASS PORTUGUESE RUNNERS in 5000m and 10000 events (from 17/ to 32/) IN THE LAST DECADES

    17/
    A/age that training starts :13
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:24
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’40.50”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class): 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 19%+19%

    18/
    A/age that training starts :15
    B/age of first performance of national class:27
    C/ age of top career performance:29
    E/best career PB:5000m - 14’03.39”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class): 2
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 30%+30%

    19/
    A/age that training starts:16
    B/age of first performance of national class:25
    C/ age of top career performance:27
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’55.00”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 2
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 45%+45%

    20/
    A/age that training starts:18
    B/age of first performance of national class:29
    C/ age of top career performance:29
    E/best career PB:10000m - 28’37.70”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 25%+25%

    21/
    A/age that training starts:17
    B/age of first performance of national class:23
    C/ age of top career performance:24
    E/best career PB:10000m - 28’16.20”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 1
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 45%+45%

    22/
    A/age that training starts:15
    B/age of first performance of national class:22
    C/ age of top career performance:24
    E/best career PB:5000m - 14’03.06”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 50%+35%

    23/
    A/age that training starts:15
    B/age of first performance of national class:25
    C/ age of top career performance:25
    E/best career PB:10000m - 29’40.48”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 60%+60%


    24/
    A/age that training starts:17
    B/age of first performance of national class:26
    C/ age of top career performance: 31
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’43.09”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to C (age of first performance of national class: 5
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 10%+12.5%

    25/
    A/age that training starts:12
    B/age of first performance of national class:27
    C/ age of top career performance:27
    E/best career PB:5000m - 14’37.60”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 40%+40%

    26/
    A/age that training starts:17
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of first performance of national class:28
    E/best career PB:5000m - 14’12.09”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 4
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 35%+50%

    27/
    A/age that training starts:17
    B/age of first performance of national class:28
    C/ age of top career performance:28
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’43.50”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 65%+65%

    28/
    A/age that training starts:14
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:25
    E/best career PB:10000m - 14’10.11”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 1
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 40%+40%

    29/
    A/age that training starts:18
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:26
    E/best career PB:5000m - 14’07.90”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 2
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 5%+7%

    30/
    A/age that training starts:18
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:29
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’58.60”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class: 5
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 50%+50%

    31/
    A/age that training starts:11
    B/age of first performance of national class:33
    C/ age of top career performance:35
    E/best career PB:5000m - 28’29.42”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class2
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 12.5%+10%

    32/
    A/age that training starts:22
    B/age of first performance of national class:24
    C/ age of top career performance:24
    E/best career PB:5000m - 13’36.00”
    F/number of years that took from B (age of first performance of national class) to A (age of first performance of national class:0
    G/total average of Continuos runs in LT pace or faster in total training volume in B season and C season: 80%+85%

    As the study that´s very extensive - and works with statistic data and statistic probablities - the conclusion is that in the LT management training what´s that relevant that´s mileage (volume) avarage (percent) in the total training volume and not the absolute total mileage. I think that this answers to Running2004 post.

    The portuguese runner that would be stereotype/prototype of sucess in the level of performance category as well as career improvement along the seasons that´s a runner that
    do 1 to 2 LT unities by week and not 3-4 and never 5-6, independently of the number of total training unities by week.

    Another intersting conclusion is that ther´s a superior amouth of sucess from those that do Lt management training in outdoor run formats (continous or by intervals) rather than in the classic track workouts.
  • einstein123
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
    Forum Index
    But what about Marius Bakken, he did reach a very good time extremly fast with big amounts of LT-training, but he is still able to improve with LT-training.

    20y: 14.xx
    21y: 13.22
    22y: 13.11
    23y: 13.09
    24y: 13.50?
    25y: 13.33
    26y: 13.06

    Of course 16 secs in 5 years isn't a lot, but still an improvement.

    Should his improvement look like this instead?

    20y: 14.xx
    21y: 13.50
    22y: 13.40
    23y: 13.30
    24y: 13.20
    25y: 13.15
    26y: 13.10
    27y: 13.08
    28y: 13.06

    I think it's better with a fast progression, why wait till you are 35 to run your best race? It's better to stay at the top longer than just for some years in the end of the career. Look at Bekele did he do the wrong thing doing a lot of LT-training?? He wont progress much over the next years but he still has 3 WRs, and many medals. A runner might have 5-10 years at the top, and it's a waste of time not to do LT-training. It's better to get professional early than late, you will go to more championships and get more sponsors. Is it worth to MISS 2 olympic games due to slow progression?. Haile doesn't have progression but still an incredible career, don't you agree? I rather have the progression Gebs career over Carlos Lopes career, that's for sure! And you never know what will happen in the future, injuries, sickness, accidents etc. You shouldn't waste your time.
  • John Rupp
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: einstein123
    Forum Index
    My interpretation of the faster but less frequent LT (or whatever) runs is that the progression in times is just as rapid but also more stable and keeps on for many more years.

    Antonio,

    If I recall correctly, you mentioned Carlos Lopes racing every weekend from January through his 2:07:12 world record marathon in April, 1985.

    Does this mean he did just one session of repetitions mid week? If so, do you know if this was usually short reps or long ones, or alternated short / long week by week.

    Thanks.
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: John Rupp
    Forum Index
    John

    In the case of Lopes that are short interval sets in between races (500m or 400m or 300m and rarely 200m). Lopes used to say that 200m brings him frequent injuries. But from times to times instead of short reps i mid-week point in beetween races he did 4X1200m Race Pace as a Control Test or 30min hard LT run - like a tempo. All starts with 30min easy warmups and ends with 10min easy cooldown.

    Yes, the whole idea is to do less units of LTM workouts but "hard" Lactate Training Management (LTM) continuous runs - specific Lt runs (close to race pace) instead of easy LTM (identified with Anaerobic Thershold).

    Besides lactic acid concentration that´s not very useful/accurate to determine the Lt pace or shape condition. The day that would buy the machine and you start using a lot that blood acid lactic concentration tests and mmol figures i guess that you would be more confuse than you are with no test use or you will think that you are training wright when you are training wrong. Just a my own idea.
    The ggod idea is to pace LTM runs according race pace, as Renato said about Pace Support - those that are immediatley slower (in percent) to the RPTD - Race Pace Target Distance.
  • Hector Matos
    registered
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
    Forum Index
    Bump
  • Lopes vs Geb
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: einstein123
    Forum Index
    Lopes medaled in two olympics (missed one with a boycott).

    Geb medalled in two olympics.

    Lopes won THREE world cross titles.

    Geb won ZERO world cross titles (one bronze).

    Hmm I think Lopes was better than you think.
  • trackhead
    registered
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Lopes vs Geb
    Forum Index
    There is no distance which Lopes, at the top of his game, could out run or outkick Haile Gebrselassie.