also, regarding Coe's training, see http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/autumn1999.pdf and go to the 22nd page, "From Peter Coe" (near the bottom).
ONE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ABOUT TRAINING
You did choose very poor examples to follow his own training method. But perfect for what I want to express.
From that Morocco group, the only that really did a sustain succeed and did progress trough the years that´s El Guerrouj. All the rest they did a quickly boom, that followed by a tremendous unsucess considereing the individual class they did reach. One more time, in my opinion, Kada morocco training that´s a good example of an very elitist training method – that´s how to train El Guerrouj and how to put in misery all the rest that don´t have El Guerrouj class. An elitist training method that´s as a natural selection, those who are able to resist they get the top, but those who don´t they end in misery.
If you follow the career of Khalid Skah, that´s a perfect example of what I want to say.
They start to train in that morocco training, using lots and lots of LT runs 5-6 times a week.
Look, what happens? After being 2 W Cross C wins, and good performances in the World and Olymoic games – all in a 2-3 years period – with 26 years old he did his 10000m PB. What was his progression after that in quite a decade training and competing. A shadow of their golden years. By doing a very elitist training that includes lots of Lt runs in that 2:50-3:10 pace he reach the top very quickly but as soon as he get the top, soon he comes down. That´s what I said about most the runners that do that LT training diet. In 2-3 years they get the top – PB´s etc, but they hardly have a decisive improvement after that. They get their limits early.
Another singular case with the same conclusion that´s Salah Hissou. After get 10000m WR in 1996 with 24 years old and few wins in big meetings, and one or 2 good classifications in WCC he eclipses completely in the next years, he have never been the same top runner he was before. What a fall. But he still keeps on trying year after year, season after season. In a last appearance he did last olympic marathon with no success. 8 years after his best season !
I could go further. But just to remember another singular case of that Magrebe group.
Mouhamed Mourith. He did 2 cross country wins, 2 European records (under Belgium nationality), but soon he did a EPO positive test.
I would not advise you to follow Kada training or morocco training – only if you are a superman. All of you – you may understand your own limitations and follow a realistic training model that fits in you.
By the way. I have also in my hands not just a copy of the Rui Silva daily schedules but also Harald Norport training schedules that his coach send me once. Rui Silva he is a 1:44/3:30/13:19. Norporth he did 3:36 (indoor ER) and 13:20 in the 70s. Harald Norporth he did train no more 10-15km a day – mainly easy runs, no double sessions, a rest day every week or 10 days. His specific workouts usually that aren´t very intense.Ex: 3X10X200m/35.5+34.5+31.7 (int. 100m jog) or 5X2000m/7:30 + 4X500m in 76/74/73/71secs).
Norporth did a job apart from running, he wasn´t a full professional runner. He did an half of the volume and intensity of what Rui Silva does. So that´s not a surprise seeing people doing 3:30 or 13:10 being full time professional runners, doing altitude stays, training more than 100 miles a week,”vVO2 workouts”, “weight training”5-6 Lt runs a week, all that tremendous stuff. I would expect that super-train runners would do sub 3.30 or sub 13:00 frequently.
I remember that more than 2 decades ago a few Portuguese runner´s that did sub 14:00 with little training and not very hard. One of them I did train personally, he did 13:36 with a full job out of athletics, a training that did consists of 45min every day, more 1 competition every weekend and 1 day off every week. I remember that Carlos Lopes he did 13:32 and 28:08 in a career moment that he did train just once a week. NO altitude training, no special diet, nothing. Eventually you know other similar examples – runners that their margin of progress are not yet limited.
For me the point is not that Sebastian Coe he did 1:41:73, but that he never did more than 14:00 following Peter Coe´s training method. You may argue that he never did 5000m with serious intentions, but with that training stuff he may have the obligation to do 13:40 in a workout training.
I know enough of Rui Silva talent and limitations as well to say that the day that Rui Silva would try to train à la El Guerrouj “2:50 to 3:10 LT runs” he would never be able to get no more olympic medals neither olympic finals or indoor champ. medals and besides I don´t know so well the other schedules and individual talent and the limitations thus the “potential” performance, but i guess that the reason of their target failures is because they train more, harder, and frequently than they should.
Antonio Cabral wrote:
I remember that Carlos Lopes he did 13:32 and 28:08 in a career moment that he did train just once a week. NO altitude training, no special diet, nothing.
13:32 / 28:08 training once a week!!! Did you mean to say that he was only doing 1 work out a week?
"One of them I did train personally, he did 13:36 with a full job out of athletics, a training that did consists of 45min every day"
Was this guy some sort of super-duper-talent Bekeleish-style?
Can you give us an example training week of this guy, and more info PLEASE!? 45 minutes every day is 80km or 50 miles.
You got the ability to coach a guy to 13.36 with only 45 min each day, that's what Im call real coaching, get the most of as little traning as possible. Aren't there more runners in Portugal given equal talent who is willing to sacrifice 45 per day to run sub-14?
Bob Schul ran 13:36--on a dirt track--while working 40 hours a week.
Bo Schul: Perhaps the most under-rated American distance runner ever. So sad that he doesn't get the recognition he deserves. Tinman
Thanks for a very good post. Is it possible that you can share some more of the training that Harold Norpoth did? He performed very well, especially for a man who had to work a full-time job. Thank you very much. Tinman
Antonio, Your system is very interesting. Very different than how we were brought up. Can you tell me How soon into training SILVA and the rest of your runners start there work-outs and what are they doing early? Hills, TEMPO,intervals? Just some ideas because we are so tied into are long base.
I thought Renato would post his training back from the World Half Marathon.
Where is he now?
Renato, can you show the work? Your advice is appreciated.
Read Renato Canova's last post. He said END of october and has a meeting in early November. I expect he will be back around then.
" Hicham runs about 120km/week (about 75 miles) during the preparation phase; while a 5000/10,000m runner such as Hissou runs 140km/week"
Is this true? I`ve heard that he is running 170-180km, for how long time do he run only 120km?
Just to highlight your point about Coe Antonio, he did in fact race 3000m seriously indoors. However he struggled to get under 8 minutes. A good time but nowhere near as good as his 800m or 1500m times.
At that time (during the 80s) we had many talents that exist no more due to the lack of interest for the runnind distance. Since we are more and more civilized doesn´t exists a really EFFORT CULTURE that did exist in the past - a few decades ago. People are fat and lazy.
In te golden era we had been in a single season 27 runners doing sub 13:40. This 2004 season we have only one ! Rui Silva 13:19 and just 2 with low than 14:00 - Rui Silva and Antonio Travassos (13:44)!
Asking about your question.
The runner that i coach and that did 13:36 with a full time Job occupatioon (7 hours a day – 5 times a week) that´s Rui Lopes. The name may not say noting to you, but the moment that he did that and what did keep my attention and I did try to analyse that´s why with 40-45min continuous runs every day and 1 “weak” workout as Control test once a week (Ex: 4X1000m 2:50-2:52 average 4 min intervals).
Thus that´s very easy to remember his weekly traning schedule
Monday,Tuesday, Thurday and Friday – 40-45min continuous runs going a few times in 3:10 by kilo.
Wednesday – 30min warmup + 4-5X1000m in 2:50-2:52 avarege range with 4min intervals
Saturday and Sunday (if ther´s no weekend competition) – the same 40-45min.
If thare´s a weekend competition – Saturday: 20min easy and Sunday – competition.
I asked to myself – if he is not able to run faster that that in workouts (2:50/kilo that´s 14:10 5000m pace) then why he did 13:36? We were in the early 80s and I didn´t know yet what are LT runs, but it took my attention that the runner did every 45min very fast than their teammates – his continuous runs weren´t easy jogs, but tempo runs.
The history of that run is that he got a good team contract change from my advise to another coach he did start training twice a week and more training volume, more track workouts. Result: Actually he is a 47 years old man, but his PB still remains 13:36 !
In my analyse as his coach I did get 2 conclusions:
1/sometimes times “less” is better. Some volume trainings are megalomaniacs according the runner talent.
2/while training LT runs very frequently you reach your top too early to soon, but after that ther´s the risk that your progression ends there, after a couple of seasons. Thus even Lt training that must be done with precaution.
Another example that I can mention is the Portuguese runner José Regalo.
Open that and go to 1988 5000m world rankings
Look he is on the top of a Dieter Bauman among others.
After 2 years of training – he did nothing as a runner or no one physical activity before that - in that 1988 season, José Regalo (13:15 PB in 1988) did win all international meeting circuits (what we now call the golden league) and he did the Seul Olympic final. After loosing their shoes after 2 kilos in the semi-final (and running with no soaks) he did 3 last kilos in pain and with his foot with lots of blisters he couldn’t recover in time to be 100% in that Seul final or we would win !
What did train José Regalo? Never more than 1 hour once a day and 3 track workout reps by week.
Next year he did start to train more volume. What did happen? He falls down in the obscurity and rarely did sub 14:00 in the rest of his career that it lasts for more than one decade after that 1988 year.
It is important to note that the article was published in BMC news.
It is very common that supporters different coaching philosophies will look at the training of a successful runner and they will empahsise elements of the training that agree with their philosophies. Then they will say "look that guy runs well because he is following my training philosophies". This could be the case here as "BMC" training is all about low mileage, running fast miles and lots of track sessions.
I would not mind betting that if a Lydiard follower was writing that article, they come up with some calculation including warm ups and warm downs that the mileage run by El Guerrouj and co. was 100 per week and they would then emphasise this point in their article - "look 100 miles per week - Lydiard was right !!"
Very interesting reading Antonio!!
So when Rui Lopes changed his training to the "portuguese system" 1-2-3 he got slower? Is that a correct observation?
No training faster or at race pace, just slower than race pace. When he changed coach he began to run faster than race pace and at race pace? Is that correct?
If you had the knowledge you have today what would you have changed in his training?
"2/while training LT runs very frequently you reach your top too early to soon, but after that ther´s the risk that your progression ends there, after a couple of seasons"
I've read your post at mariusbakken today, you say Alberto C trains between 2.57-3.12, never slower than 3.15. That's LT-trainng, why is he doing it if it's BAD? I don't understand....
Tinman and others
As i receive lots of e-mails with questions regarding Van Aaken method and about his top disciple Harald Norporth - a runner they win all races over Steve Prefontaine - and the fact that i did share some mails (letters, not e-mails at that time !) with van Aaken, i think i have some authority to introduce my own ideas about van Aaken method. I have also some original material about that and i did read lots of his books and training ideas - most of them in Swiss Spiridon magazine edited by the swiss translator Noel Tamini.
But one previous detail. Despite i´m able to discuss about that issue and send you some information - it keeps being my personal opinion, nothing more than that.
Ok i will accept this challenge, and i always try my best.
Excuse me, that´s a my own mistake. I want ro say he just train once a day.
'As i receive lots of e-mails with questions regarding Van Aaken method and about his top disciple Harald Norporth - a runner they win all races over Steve Prefontaine'
Men's 5000 meter Final 1972 Munich Olympic Games
1. Lasse VIREN (FIN) 13:26.4 OR
2. Mohamed GAMMOUDI (TUN) 13:27.4
3. Ian STEWART (GBR) 13:27.6
4. Steve PREFONTAINE (USA) 13:28.4
5. Emiel PUTTEMANS (BEL) 13:30.8
6. Harald NORPOTH (GER) 13:32.6
7. Per HALLE (NOR) 13:34.4
8. Nikolai SVIRIDOV (RUS) 13:39.4