Why Isn't Jim Ryun's 3:33.1 in 1967 the American Collegiate Record?

Should The new record count since it was rabbited by a professional?

malmo wrote:

The NCAA recognizes anything during in and out of season as "College Best"

http://www.ncaa.com/content/di-tf-championships-men-final-results

I think that the timing company is the one who put the college best marks in there, not the NCAA. As far as I know, the NCAA only keeps championship records and nothing else.

As for the difference between high school records and college records, I think there are a few differences:

1) Almost all HSers go to college and don't turn pro, so having records through the summer after their senior year isn't a big issue to me. Considering all of the post season meets like Nike Outdoor Nationals, US junior champs, possibly world juniors, and the such, a HSer has a lot of opportunities for good marks.

2) For college athletes, the transition from college to pro is less clear cut. This is especially true for those who turn pro before completing four years of college.

3) Most importantly, TFN is the one who really keeps the college records, and Jack Shepard keeps the HS records. Well, there are about 5 different sets of HS records. Different compilers, different rules. I have no problems with the differences.

In 1985 Tim Hacker ran 3:35.29 in Europe with a full year of eligiblity remaining. He won the NCAA cross country title that fall.

Its always been a mystery to me too why Jim Ryun's 3:33 (an AR for years) was never a collegiate record.

Is it any wonder that track and field is so confusing and lacks interest from the public. First of all, most would agree that it is the mile that is most interesting to the ordinary sports fan and not the 1500. Secondly, it has always been my feeling that anything an athlete does during his or her final collegiate season (and that includes post NCAA) should count for record purposes.

If you are going to be so restrictive to only include marks made through to the NCAA Championships, then you better throw out marks made at time trials with pro pacers and pro runners, as that is NOT a collegiate event.

So, I would suggest that the best measurement for record purposes is the end of a season, whether it be the NCAA meet, USATF meet, or international competition during the summer concluding with the Olympics or World Championships. Once that outdoor season is done and the athlete is no longer eligible for college competition, anything done after that would not be counted towards a collegiate record.

And then... where does Alan Webb's 3:53.4 from Prefontaine sit? Officially it's the prep best, but he was really out of high school heading into his first year at Michigan. Some conversion tables put Webb's 1500 conversion at slightly better than what Merber ran.

Sagarin wrote:

And then... where does Alan Webb's 3:53.4 from Prefontaine sit? Officially it's the prep best, but he was really out of high school heading into his first year at Michigan. Some conversion tables put Webb's 1500 conversion at slightly better than what Merber ran.

What kind of crazy talk is that? Webb was timed at 3:38 in that race. 3:38 is slower than 3:35, even today.

Secondly, he was months away from enrollment at Michigan.

these records are all confusing bernard lagat ran i think 3:30.69 and that was counted by track and field news as the collegiate record and it is no longer on the list.

henry rono had the collegiate 10000 record 27:22 according to track and field news for a LOT OF YEARS, now chelanga has the record at 27:08 and the second fastest collegiate time listed is 27:28 and rono's 27:22 which track and field news themselves listed as the collegiate record for OVER 2 DECADES is not on the list.

i think what happened was the person at track and field news who made the rules for what would be accepted as records gave the athlete until august 31st of their senior season to get records.

and then the next person in charge decided to wipe out all times done after the NCAA meet. this really softened a few of the records, but lagats 3:30.69 done before august 31st of his senior season is the REAL RECORD, but since it was done after the NCAA meet and the rulemakers of the magazine changed the rules in the middle of the game, it is no longer the record, very confusing.

as for jim ryun he ran the 3:33.1 in july after the NCAA meet so he probably was considered the NCAA record holder for many years, but his record was probably wiped out by the staff at track and field news, and still to this day no USA citizen has come within 2 seconds of ryuns american citizen collegiate record. (lagat was not a USA citizen when he was in college).

All of this is a bit silly, isn't it? Ryun was still an undergrad, and still an amateur, when he ran a world record for 1500 meters. That ought to be enough.

Wow Unbelievable wrote:

All of this is a bit silly, isn't it? Ryun was still an undergrad, and still an amateur, when he ran a world record for 1500 meters. That ought to be enough.

and on a dirt track no less!

They should count college records during the senior summer, just like they count high school records done during their senior summer. If you count Jeff Demps' 10.01 which was done in July, then you should count Lagat's 3:30.

I like the suggestion someone else made on the other thread: for a performance to be a collegiate record, you have to be wearing your school's uniform and representing them. Arbitrary? Sure, but no more so than the other criteria suggested. And this has the advantage of being simple to evaluate, even for historic races. I mean, if you're going to set a school record, seems to me that you should be wearing the school uniform (and if it's not a school record, pretty strange to say it's the collegiate record).

malmo wrote:

Sagarin wrote:

And then... where does Alan Webb's 3:53.4 from Prefontaine sit? Officially it's the prep best, but he was really out of high school heading into his first year at Michigan. Some conversion tables put Webb's 1500 conversion at slightly better than what Merber ran.

What kind of crazy talk is that? Webb was timed at 3:38 in that race. 3:38 is slower than 3:35, even today.

Secondly, he was months away from enrollment at Michigan.

Agree about the enrollment part, though it's that "gray" area previously referred to here. He went through 1500 in 3:38 en route to a 3:53.4 mile. So I guess that means he was only worth a 3:38. Speaking of crazy talk...

r7i6 wrote:

wejo wrote:

What do we do about Centrowitz? Since he could have come back and had not gone pro, I'm leaning towards counting it.

T&FN may be "The Bible of The Sport," but (digital) times seem to have passed them by. We need a more recent holy book to determine, and keep track of, these records!

I nominate LRC as "al-Qur'an of The Sport."

They should allow all times that an athlete runs while they still have collegiate eligibility. After the NCAA Championship their senior year(or extended if in grad school), they are no longer eligible for collegiate records.

While in college(or under the umbrella of the NCAA), you've got to play by their rules as to non-professional status, academic eligibility, etc.

Centro counts because I believe he was still eligible to compete the next season and hadn't turned professional (which would have made him ineligible for NCAA competition)

Webb turned professional and wouldn't count after his freshman year at Michigan.

douglas burke wrote:

i think what happened was the person at track and field news who made the rules for what would be accepted as records gave the athlete until august 31st of their senior season to get records.

That's exactly what I remember the T&FN policy always being. I wasn't aware it had changed... I much prefer the old way.

Dan

someone had to do it wrote:

Wow Unbelievable wrote:

All of this is a bit silly, isn't it? Ryun was still an undergrad, and still an amateur, when he ran a world record for 1500 meters. That ought to be enough.

and on a dirt track no less!

Yep, on a dirt track in the middle of a hot day in downtown LA during the smog era. It was 90F degrees. He was 20 years old.

It's a very impressive performance and will always be remembered as an amazing statistic but I don't see how it qualifies as any 'record' when Lagat ran 3:30 whilst at college.

You can keep narrowing down conditions to create any number of 'records'. It's meaningless.

If the NCAA record is defined as the fastest time inside the NCAA season then that's what it is. It's pointless changing it to 'the fastest runner who was at college but also an undergrad and also American born only and called Jim Ryun'.

An 'American-born' collegiate record is just stupid. Colleges are independent entities; being American has nothing to do with attending college. Pretty much anyone can go to college anywhere in the world.

wejo wrote:

I think most of us are in agreement Ryun should count.

What do we do about Centrowitz? Since he could have come back and had not gone pro, I'm leaning towards counting it.

It should only count if he used the eligibility. Even if he came back a 3k at the UW invite, if he decided to go pro after that, he at least put the jersey back on so there were 2 races with an Oregon jersey on before and after his 3:34. Since this isn't the case (I don't think he ran a single ncaa race his 5th year), it should not count.

For this reason, I think Jim Ryun's record should count, if he had a school jersey on, did he?

T&FN is inconsistent with their own rules. They don't count NCAA out of season performances as records, yet they DO count out of season high school performances as records. Webb's mile, for instance. They are just a dinosaur magazine and have no official connection to the sport.

ex-runner wrote:

It's a very impressive performance and will always be remembered as an amazing statistic but I don't see how it qualifies as any 'record' when Lagat ran 3:30 whilst at college.

You can keep narrowing down conditions to create any number of 'records'. It's meaningless.

If the NCAA record is defined as the fastest time inside the NCAA season then that's what it is. It's pointless changing it to 'the fastest runner who was at college but also an undergrad and also American born only and called Jim Ryun'.

An 'American-born' collegiate record is just stupid. Colleges are independent entities; being American has nothing to do with attending college. Pretty much anyone can go to college anywhere in the world.

Wow this is a sore subject for you apparently. Lagat didn't run for his college after he ran 3:30, so you could consider his college running career to be over. If you don't that's fine. But whether it's 3:30 or 3:33 it's still faster than 3:35 which is the main point here.