Aerobic system in the 800

i meant to say why, and bump

Better heart pump more blood. More blood mean more oxygen at cell. Oxygen good for running. Runner run faster.

The way the body systems work, they all kick in a different points and max out at certain points, for most average runners the anaerobic system is maxed out between 1:30-200. After this the aerobic system is the main component of last 200 of the 800, because of this having a strong aerobic system is very important.

Kinvara wrote:

The way the body systems work, they all kick in a different points and max out at certain points, for most average runners the anaerobic system is maxed out between 1:30-200. After this the aerobic system is the main component of last 200 of the 800, because of this having a strong aerobic system is very important.

Yep, this. Essentially the last 200m.

Also, I think the lactate and aerobic systems overlap before the last 200m, i.e. "share the load" before the lactate system is completely tapped, helping extend the lactate tank.

Lactate is providing the aerobic fuel in an 800. You are thinking of the anaerobic ATP, often confusingly refered to as the 'lactic system'.

Umm...I don't think so. I think you're the one confusing matters here (although admittedly there is a lot of disagreement over the terms and over these specifics). Lactate is the anion of lactic acid: both are very much a part of the "whatever-you-want-to-call-it-system-that-is-anaerobic-and-involves-lactate/lactic-acid." It would be ridiculous to call that system "anaerobic ATP," because both ATP and CP are part of anaerobic fuel that come BEFORE lactate/lactic acid enter the picture in an 800.

This is incorrect, unfortunately.You use your aerobic system until it's maxed out, THEN you switch over to your anaerobic system (which is less energy-efficient). The anaerobic system (converting pyruvate to lactate instead of going into the TCA cycle), is what generates "lactic acid."Therefore, the better your aerobic system, the more you will delay the use of your anaerobic system, AND the better your body will be able to move lactate from the muscles to the liver and convert it back to pyruvate.TL;DR: Having a strong aerobic system is beneficial because it delays the need to start the anaerobic system, and allows you to better metabolize lactic acid once you generate it.

Kinvara wrote:

The way the body systems work, they all kick in a different points and max out at certain points, for most average runners the anaerobic system is maxed out between 1:30-200. After this the aerobic system is the main component of last 200 of the 800, because of this having a strong aerobic system is very important.

MS3 Runner wrote:

This is incorrect, unfortunately.

You use your aerobic system until it's maxed out, THEN you switch over to your anaerobic system (which is less energy-efficient). The anaerobic system (converting pyruvate to lactate instead of going into the TCA cycle), is what generates "lactic acid."

Therefore, the better your aerobic system, the more you will delay the use of your anaerobic system, AND the better your body will be able to move lactate from the muscles to the liver and convert it back to pyruvate.

TL;DR: Having a strong aerobic system is beneficial because it delays the need to start the anaerobic system, and allows you to better metabolize lactic acid once you generate it.

This needs correcting. ALL energy systems kick in immediately. One does not wait for another to fizzle out. The anaerobic alactic system will run out of fuel in a matter of seconds, but the other two -- aerobic and anaerobic lactic -- will work together until fuel supplies are exhausted. What differs is the amount of contribution from each, but they are both contributing.

iCoach, you are more correct as I was speaking in terms of dominant factors. As you said, it's a balance of contributions.

Consider that the last part of the race is run the slowest. Having great aerobic conditioning allows a runner to improve the portion of the race that takes up the largest percentage of time. What's odd is that at the elite level, records are broken by running the first part of the race faster. Maintaining the same pace to the finish line as someone who started slower obviously also takes aerobic conditioning. However, I suspect that there will eventually come along someone with freakish endurance who will smash the world record by being able to run the last 200 seconds faster than anyone would expect.

Whether all kick in immediately is debatable. I agree that there's overlap--more than one system going at once--but there is clearly a dominant system at certain points in the race.

1) CP is clearly dominant at the start, for the first 100-200.

2) Aerobic is clearly dominant at the finish (for the vast majority at least) because both CP and anaerobic lactic are gone.

Ok, so what is the middle portion of the race? Clearly anaerobic lactic, very possibly aided significantly by aerobic. So which is it, pure anaerobic lactic or a hybrid? Well, does it matter? The point is that you want to run this portion as fast as you can while burning anaerobic lactic judiciously. It makes sense to talk about, race, and train with the mentality that anaerobic lactic is dominant for this portion of the race, regardless of the contribution of aerobic. Aerobic is still absolutely crucial for when anaerobic lactic is dry.

Nope, not in an 800. The 800 is too fast for pure aerobic--it's "maxed out" at the start of the race. You burn up the others until aerobic is all that's left.

you are just plain wrong.

STATE CHAMP wrote:

you are just plain wrong.

About what? Enlighten us.

Aerobic capacity is essential for an adequate 800 m training ...

I agree with STATE CHAMP that some of your statements are wrong.The CP pathway is used up in the first few seconds - correct.Aerobic is all what's left at the end of the race - incorrect. While the aerobic contribution will be maximal for the duration of the race, the anaerobic contribution does not diminish significantly as to approach zero. In order for your statement to be true, an 800m runner would be closer to 3-minute/800m pace at the end of their race.Think of it this way: the more fit you are, the faster your aerobic pace is. For example: I can stay completely within my aerobic threshold for a 3 minute 800m, but a slower individual will need to use their anaerobic system to meet that same pace.Therefore (let's make up a random number), a well-trained athlete will be able to get to "50%" of their desired 800m pace using just their aerobic system. That means the other "50%" of the pace will have to be anaerobic. Since the anaerobic system is less efficient (something like 8 times less ATP per glucose than utilizing the TCA cycle all the way through) and it generates "lactic acid," you will fatigue rapidly.Therefore, having a strong aerobic system will effectively delay reaching a certain fatigue threshold at a certain pace. (Or to reword, you could go a faster pace and fatigue at the same point in time, by which you would have covered more distance and are closer to the finish of the race).But wait there's more! Part of aerobic training is increasing the efficiency by which you can recycle lactate back to pyruvate, therefore improving recovery from anaerobic efforts AND delaying the rate at which lactate builds up in your blood.Hope this helps.-MS3 Runner

Los Soles wrote:

STATE CHAMP wrote:

you are just plain wrong.

About what? Enlighten us.

MS3 Runner, I agree with basically everything you said about the role of the aerobic system. The only difference is that I believe the anaerobic lactic system goes effectively bankrupt by the end of the race.

Look at 200m splits: almost every elite 800 time has a significant drop-off on the last 200m. It's pretty much always:

1st -- fastest (CP)

2nd -- medium (lactic)

3rd -- medium (lactic)

4th -- slowest (aerobic)

Rudisha's world record:

1st -- 23.9

2nd -- 25.1

3rd -- 25.5

4th -- 26.6

Now again, I agree that there's overlap with these systems, so that aerobic works in combination with lactic in the middle of the race. Also, it's not actually true that the switches happen right at 200m--that's just where we look at splits.

But it is true that lactic goes essentially bankrupt somewhere near the end of the race, and there is a DRAMATIC drop in pace. For the last 200m? That's arbitrary: Could be the last 13m, 67m, 146m, or 237m. I guess having one point at all is somewhat misleading, because it fades gradually. I really have no idea what the actual percentages are, but the point is that there is a VERY LARGE shift from mostly anaerobic (lactic) to mostly aerobic. 80-20 to 20-80? 60-40 to 40-60? 60-40 to 0-100? I really don't know. You WANT to bankrupt lactic; if you don't, you ran too slow. You just want to postpone it until late enough in the race so that your time doesn't suffer from an extended period of pure aerobic.

In a 1500m (or longer), kickers are the ones with great speed. In an 800, IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE. Kickers are the ones with great aerobic. Think Nick Symmonds: cross country and 3200 meter champion in high school, 800-1500 runner throughout college, ran cross in college. When he races against 400-800 types, he's the one with the kick because he has the aerobic advantage. But he's not actually kicking: he's just decelerating less.

I strongly disagree los soles,

You can't ascertain which type of energy system is dominant by simply looking at split times. The reason people who go out hard in an 800 are slowing in the final 200 is because they have been heavily using the anaerobic systems for 600m and their legs are filling with lactic acid. Lactic acid prevents the muscles from continuing to work properly so they slow down. This whole time the aerobic system is also working. But if the anaerobic system had completely been tapped by 600m their legs would be so full of lactic acid that they would "die" in the race 200m from the finish and their final 200 would be wayyyy slower than other splits, much more than just a second off the previous 200m split. No elite runner is gonna so badly misjudge themselves so that they have tapped their anaerobic system with 200m left. If Rudisha did that he'd probably go 23.9, 24.2, 24.5, 32.

gonena wrote:

The reason people who go out hard in an 800 are slowing in the final 200 is because they have been heavily using the anaerobic systems for 600m and their legs are filling with lactic acid. Lactic acid prevents the muscles from continuing to work properly so they slow down.

This is totally wrong. Funny how the 100 years old lactic acid hypothesis is still alive despite no evidence supporting it.

First of all: there's no lactic acid building up in your muscles. It's lactate, which is a basic compound, and also the reducing reaction from pyruvate to lactate consumes H+. So the lactate synthesis actually reverses acidification, doesn't cause it. What causes lowering in pH, is the fast ATP breakdown, that releases H+ faster than the buffering capasity of the muscles can handle. But without lactate, the pH would fall even faster.

More about this (a scientific biochemical review):

Secondly: lactate is not the cause of fatigue. The major biochemical causes for impaired muscle contraction following hard exercise involve changes in Ca2+ and K+ homeostasis and glycogen depletion, among others.

More about this:

But what does this help, I bet ignorant coaches will be telling the lactate story over and over again also for next 100 years.

gonena wrote:

Lactic acid prevents the muscles from continuing to work properly so they slow down.

What "Biochemist by education" said.

Also, anaerobic glycolysis cannot continue indefinitely (for complex reasons), but the lactate formed through glycolysis is actually fuel for the aerobic system. Runners fade at the end of an 800 because they have to shift more to aerobic so that they can utilize the lactate as fuel and continue producing ATP. If you're running too fast for oxygen to be involved in glycolysis, then you have to slow enough to get oxygen involved.

As I've repeatedly stated on this thread, this happens on a continuum, and not exactly at the 200m mark. It's not 100% anaerobic to 100% aerobic. I'm pretty sure I've stated that very clearly.

Again (and again, and again), I still think it makes sense to talk about the 800 in terms of dominant systems per 200m, in this model:

1) CP

2) lactic

3) lactic

4) aerobic

But I'm totally in agreement that nothing is 100% anywhere along this process, so it's technically much more like this:

1) CP (with some lactic and negligible aerobic contributions)

2) lactic (with supporting aerobic)

3) lactic (with supporting aerobic)

4) aerobic (with diminishing lactic)

But perhaps you prefer this:

1) CP (with some lactic and negligible aerobic contributions)

2) lactic-aerobic

3) lactic-aerobic

4) lactic-aerobic (with rapidly increasing aerobic as lactic fades dramatically)

I still like the first model. I think it gets the basic idea, and I don't think we need a caveat for every detail of every statement.