High School athletes don't think, can I define tempo runs like this?

Decently good, but for most of your high school athletes, who are aerobically way under-trained, that would be too fast for them.

Mile PR + 1:15-1:25 might be a better rule?

Varsity: 1 mile PR + 1 min;

JV: 2 mile PR + 1 minute?

My former coach tried to use this method. Does it get you in the ball park? Sort of. It gets hairy when you compare, say, a 1:55 800 runner who can barely stay on his feet long enough to run 4:20 with a 31:30 10k guy who barely has the wheels to get down to 65 second pace for 4 laps. That said, you're looking for a down and dirty calculation. If possible, I would recommend basing tempo run pace on a 2 mile time (or longer) so you're at least extrapolating fitness across a smaller gap (2 mile to ~10k/HM is more accurate than 1 mile to 10k/HM).

Regardless, for a group of athletes who are presumably still under developed aerobically and are probably running in the 4:30-5:15 range, I would recommend adding more than a minute. In general, a 4:30 miler in HS would have much less fitness over 10k/HM than a late 20's runner who can still run 4:30 but has a 72:00 HM best. Plus, it's better to under-do the threshold efforts than over-do them, IMO.

For a group of teenagers, I would say to start at mile PR + 90 and gradually speed up to mile PR + 60 as long as it doesn't feel like the effort is approaching an interval workout. Even that might be a few too many words. Damn.

Use their mile time for that week (or if you don't do a timed mile every week, use their last timed mile of this season) and:

For 5:15+ timed mile, add 55 seconds to get a target tempo pace.

For 4:55-5:15, add 50 seconds.

For 4:40-4:55, add 45 seconds.

You see where this is going. The faster their timed mile, the better shape they are in, and the closer their tempo run should be to that.

If weekly mileage and the tempo distance does not decrease, they should be able to hit this pace (at least for the first 3 or 4 miles) after three or four weeks.

A guy on my team runs a 4:39 mile, he can barely manage a 10:46 2 mile, and he's only a 55-56 400 guy. so how is someone supposed to manage that pace for 3-4 miles?

Why not look up their paces on Daniels's VDOT charts and tell it to them?

I do this and have no problems. I also try to explain the feeling of a tempo run, and its physiologicl benefits so that they know how and why they are doing this. Not every kid runs them correctly ( biggest problem is starting too fast and dying, but thinking it's ok becuse it averaged out), but we've made tremendous progress in the past two years since implementing them.

Coopington wrote:

Why not look up their paces on Daniels's VDOT charts and tell it to them?

I do this and have no problems. I also try to explain the feeling of a tempo run, and its physiologicl benefits so that they know how and why they are doing this. Not every kid runs them correctly ( biggest problem is starting too fast and dying, but thinking it's ok becuse it averaged out), but we've made tremendous progress in the past two years since implementing them.

That is what I do now. But despite being in AP Calculus they still have a hard time figuring that stuff out. Plus with 150 kids it's a time killer. Trying to make it simple and quick.

Nothing to figure out. Print out a sheet with the tempo paces and their corresponding race times. Post it in the locker room or give one to every kid.

I wish I had that many kids!

That's what you would think, and I do. But ikid you not, kids going to ivy leagues have a hard time placing their pr's on the v-dot chart then applying that number to the pace chart.

Apparently in the push for higher learning they left out critical thinking and how to read a chart. Really it sounds so simple but explaining how to determine threshold pace and follow the chart is rediculously hard. They just don't want to use their brains at the end of the day. Thus I'm trying to figure out a way to "keep it simple stupid."

For a girl who runs a 6 min mile, a 12:50 two mile and 21 for a hilly xc course maybe 2 mile pace plus a min. Would be appropriate.

Way too technical folks. You put on your trainers, you run hard, but within yourself, for the selected distance. You stop. Repeat as needed. Get the watch out every now and then to see where you're @, but stop already with the calculations and formulas. Keep it simple.

Well this is completely wrong:

hippy dippy do dippy wrote:

For 5:15+ timed mile, add 55 seconds to get a target tempo pace.

For 4:55-5:15, add 50 seconds.

For 4:40-4:55, add 45 seconds.

I like 5k pace + 20-30 seconds per mile for ballpark tempo pace.

I've always heard 5k pace per mile plus 30 seconds.

Then again, I've always been a fan of easier tempos.

I feel you. HS kids are going to benefit most from an appropriate tempo but have several things working against them. Lack of overall aerobic fitness to handle long workouts, lack of attention span (this generation of HS kids from 2005 - present are terrible and they only get worse every year), inconsistent days (see lack of aerobic fitness), poor racing tactics leading to race times not indicative of actual fitness... It's tough. Ballpark works. Given their lack of aerobic development, mile pace plus 75 for most guys (4:30 - 5:30 range), mile place plus 90 works for most girls (5:15 - 6:15 range). You really only need to adjust for outliers. Fast girls are easy, just put them with some guys. Fast guys you may need to run with. The slow ones, well, you can just adjust how far they are running. Nobody says it out loud, but it's not really important on their specific paces.

Saul Goodman wrote:

Fast girls are easy

There is a lot of variation here. I usually start out my season with a lot of tempo intervals or cruise intervals so the kids can get the idea of what the pace should feel like. During cross, we run a 2m tt on the 2nd day of practice then base our paces off of that for the first two weeks, when we run another tt. Our CI sessions are usually something like 3-6 x 1200 @ 2m pace +30 sec.

It breaks down like this:

The younger kids, who have done enough running during the summer to run the first TT are usually pretty intimidated on the first go round. They end up running a time that is really slow. As a result, their Cruise Interval pace ends up feeling really easy and they will usually exceed it. A workout on paper for a kid who ran a 14 min TT might look like 3-4 x 1200 @ 5:40 with 1:00-1:30 recovery. This type of kid will usually really over run the workout the first time. Eventually he figures out what tempo pace feels like, and he transitions to something like a 3 mile tempo @ 7:30 pace.

The older more experienced kids who have been putting in the miles will be eager to slam that first TT and will put up a time more in line with their actual abilities. So, you may have an older kid who runs his TT in 11 min. He might be scheduled for 6 x 1200 @ 4:30 with 90 seconds recovery. Because my older kids are somewhat smarter, they do their summer running in the evening or morning. As a result, the 6 x 1200 workout at 3:00 in the 100 degree august weather really is a killer, and the kids start pooching out after #4 or #5 because they just aren't used to the heat. Eventually the weather starts to cool down or we meet on a saturday morning and this same kid might easily crank out 4.5 miles tempo @ 6:00 pace

So, yeah. My rule of thumb gets violated every time by every kid just about. I

The other reason we do CI early on is because of the heat. A straight 4 mile tempo effort just ain't going to happen for most HS kids when the weather is well north of 100. CI gives them water breaks.

Reality Bath wrote:

Well this is completely wrong:

hippy dippy do dippy wrote:

For 5:15+ timed mile, add 55 seconds to get a target tempo pace.

For 4:55-5:15, add 50 seconds.

For 4:40-4:55, add 45 seconds.

So guys like Hicham, Lagat, etc do tempos at 4:10-4:20 pace eh?

Hell for an individual with reasonable aerobic development a 4:40 mile is good for like a low 16's 5K. 5:10-5:15 pace for 5K and then 5:25 pace for tempos? About that...

I'm really enjoying this thread, wherein actual, successful high school coaches give the benefit of their experience and talk about what's worked for them.

"Mile PR + 1 min."--when I saw this part of the OP, it immediately reminded me of PAAVO. Whether you're a fan of that or not (from what I've been told of it, I'm not a huge fan), you have to admit that it works for a lot of teams. I think part of why it works, and part of its appeal, is that it provides simple formulas for athletes *and coaches* to follow.

I definitely agree with another poster's suggestion of developing a feel for tempo pace by starting with cruise intervals. On another thread, someone suggesting getting all the kids on a track and just having them run at tempo pace for five minutes, then take a one-minute break--classic Daniels cruise intervals, right? At the end of five minutes, they stop running, then have a minute to walk back to the start (or maybe just to one of the 100m marks).

With this setup, you can monitor their pace pretty well--even groups with very different paces--and can also eyeball their form and effort. (My experience is that kids are more likely to run the five-minute pieces too fast than too slow; I emphasized that the 60sec breaks are to *prevent* getting out of breath, rather than to pay off an oxygen debt. They shouldn't be "sucking wind" at any point.)