At distances over a mile, was Skah the best kicker ever? Been watching some youtube videos of him and I've yet to see one where he's outkicked. Even Geb loses. I think maybe Bekele might have been able to do it but, all-in-all, Skah wins if anywhere near the lead with 400 to go.
Well, Nahhhhhhmie, Morten Andersen wasn't half bad...
Cliff Clavin wrote:
Well, Nahhhhhhmie, Morten Andersen wasn't half bad...
Minus the football.
Remember that in the race where Skah destroys Geb, Geb was not in his prime yet. Nonetheless, Skah could kick, no doubt.
I've seen that said a lot, but he was a lot better at pace and position than kicking.
His kick wasn't really all that fast.
Marc Davis outkicked him when he ran the 8:12 AR 2 mile.
In cross country Skah reminds me of an American runner around that time, Tim Hacker. Very strong power and turnover in the lower body for a distance runner. Especially on the grass. Those two were built the same.
Abraham Chebii? 50 point at the Prefontaine Classic 5000 one year in a 13:04 race. Maybe it was 51. That has to be the greatest kick in a one shot deal I ever heard of.
The king of the kickers in my book was Alberto Cova.
Didn't Paul Bitok outkick Skah over 5000m at Bislet?
Mirtus Yifter (AKA Yifter the Shifter) wasn't half bad either.
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtDUkS9RD_0
Geb waxing Khalid Skah, Paul Tergat and Salah Hissou in the 1995 WC 10,000.
The Emperor wasn't a bad kicker.
Skah's kick was very much feared by many of the best 5K/10K runners of the time and caused MANY to resort to tactics that they might not have tried otherwise.
He also raced a lot compared to many which built his reputation.
It is difficult to single any one person out as the BEST at anything, but as a kicker Skah would have to be included in the conversation and likely in the best dozen or so ever IMO.
I don't know if Morcelli could be considered as the best kicker ever, but this is my favorite kick of all time.
So here is Skah out kicking Geb in a 1994 at 5,000m, 10 days after Geb broke Aouita's 5,000 record.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1--VQoCMjg
Geb 1993 kick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBFtPl5yeFE
Geb 1995 kick over Skah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtDUkS9RD_0
Geb 1996 kick over Skah and 2000 kick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eZ-x4IEoXM
1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeyZUdUI1fY
1999
bangalangadanga wrote:
I don't know if Morcelli could be considered as the best kicker ever, but this is my favorite kick of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-9VRMa91ew
Man, that was ridiculous. Started his kick from about 300 out and just kept extending his lead. Aouita and El Guerrouj weren't half bad either, especially kicking in a 5000.
maybe this may help
i think skah in '94 was worth close to 12'55 ( off his devastating 13-flat which was still more a tactical race than just a pure tt ) & close to 27-flat ( he didn't run many tt over 10k but was the olympic champ ! )
line of fit of maybe :
51.7 / 1'49.1 -> 3'34.3 , 4'51.6 , 7'29.9 , 12'56.1 , 27'03.4
for geb in '94, maybe
52.1 / 1'49.6 -> 3'34.7 , 4'51.9 , 7'29.7 , 12'54.3 , 26'56.0
he only had a ~ 27'15pb back then, but it's pretty obvious in retrospect he was worth sub-27 at the time
it's possible geb was close to 0.5s slower over 400 & that showed on that last lap of that 13'00 skah win
if perhaps nearer 12'55 pace, it may have been different result
note, i do reckon the moses of '92 was better kicker than both - he ran 7'28.9wr & a 13'01 off a derisory pace for 3k & storming last 2k - he was worth at least 12'55 that day with proper pacing to 3k
51.0 / 1'48.0 -> 3'32.7 , 4'49.9 , 7'28.0 , 12'54.2 , 27'03.3
ventolin^3 wrote:for geb in '94, maybe
52.1 / 1'49.6 -> 3'34.7 , 4'51.9 , 7'29.7 , 12'54.3 , 26'56.0
compare to line of fit at his possible peak in '98
51.0 / 1'47.2 -> 3'29.9 , 4'45.2 , 7'19.2 , 12'36.0 , 26'16.9
( he ran his 12'39wr too slow to 4k & put in blistering last 2'27 !
he was worth near 12'36 that day with quicker pace to 4k )
his actual 400/800 ratio is virtually unchanged ( indicator of endurance ) - what happened is that he just got stronger & tacked on better 400 speed to virtually unchanged endurance & that made all the difference from 12'55 down to theoretical 12'36
break it up wrote:Abraham Chebii? 50 point at the Prefontaine Classic 5000 one year in a 13:04 race. Maybe it was 51. That has to be the greatest kick in a one shot deal I ever heard of.
he had best 400 speed of any of them & likely in slow race, the best kick
he recorded a 50.6 in an 8-flat 3k, so maybe close to open 50-flat ( article says only full sprint from 250 ot )
http://www.iaaf.org/news/athletes/newsid=27394.htmlIn late autumn, altered training to improve ability to stay with fast pace and finish still faster. After quick-kicking wins in first three GPs of 2003, tested new training in Oslo GL 5000 against Kenenisa Bekele, staying with 13-minute pace and streaking to the front shortly after the bell. Held lead into home straight but tied up badly and finished 4th (in PB 12:52.99) behind Kenenisa and Kenyans Sammy Kipketer and Eliud Kipchoge. A week later, in Paris, followed famous kick of Haile Gebrselassie with faster one of his own, leaving the "Emperor" nearly a second adrift (12:53.37 to 12:54.36), and a week after that blew past both Haile and Kenenisa in Rome (12:57.14).
Abraham Chebii may be the most explosive kicker in recent distance running history. Even in an era in which a top-class 5000 runner has to be able to close a 13:00 race with a 55 second last lap, Chebii stands out. In the Grand Prix Final at the end of the 2002 season, he clocked 50.68 for his last 400 meters, and he didn't start his full sprint until 250 to go. As he says, however, "It is easy to kick when the pace is slow. You must be able to follow a fast pace and then kick." Which is what he trained himself to do over the 2002-2003 off-season. The most convincing evidence of that training's effectiveness came in the Rome GL, where Haile Gebrselassie, having been outsprinted by Chebii in Paris, started driving for home from 600 meters out, with Kenenisa Bekele and Chebii in tow. Haile was spent by the final turn and moved wide to let Kenenisa through, but Chebii slipped through the gap as well and bounded after the sprinting Kenenisa. He passed the Ethiopian with 50 to go and was timed at sub-25 for his last 200 -- in a 12:57 race
i saw that race on tv - absolutely stunning
it's pretty obvious he was capable of well below 12'50 at even pace that year
i'd go with provisional line of fit for him as
50.0 / 1'46.2 -> 3'29.7 ! , 4'46.0 , 7'22.6 ! , 12'46.2 , 26'49.9
he couda gone 3'29 & well below 7'25 in '03 if he'd targeted those in his brief bulldozing shape when he destroyed 1st geb then kennster in races
Perhaps you already posted it somewhere but I would be interested in your line of fit for Aouita in his prime
for '85 i go with something like
48.3 / 1'44.2 -> 3'28.3 , 4'45.7 , 7'25.1 , 12'56.9 , 27'28.7
to
48.4 / 1'44.3 -> 3'28.4 , 4'45.6 , 7'24.8 , 12'55.9 , 27'25.4
( he is entitled to low 3'28 off a 3'29.7 with a last lap of 52.8 & pretty obvious he was worth well below 13'00 as they did jog around the 4th km before sydney picked up pace & aouita just tucked in
the 3k was always a problem for him & he just never managed to time it - we have 12'55 kenyans with little speed running 7'28/7'29 & for aouita not beating 7'32 in '85 is one of the sport's mysteries... )