ukathleticscoach wrote:
Did you never occur to you that he might have been trying to promote some actual discussion about track history
Let's hope so. Otherwise it's pretty naive considering his business(es)
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Did you never occur to you that he might have been trying to promote some actual discussion about track history
Let's hope so. Otherwise it's pretty naive considering his business(es)
ukathleticscoach wrote:
'Jack Daniels trained Ryun for 3:37 pace as he believed no human could run faster than that at altitude, based on Jacks studies with Ryun. Ryun went out at the pace he trained for thinking Keino could not hold his suicidal pace.'
Watching that race again either couldn't go with the pace (he looked to be rocking and rolling before the bell to me?) or had poor tactics. He was miles behind the 2nd and 3rd runners and gave himself no chance
His tactics were based on what pace he felt could be sustained at altitude. His head rolling was his style and his tactics were not unusual for him.
when in comes to triplers...how about Ben Jipcho (who rabbited for Keino in '68) at the '74 Commonwealth Games..
3:33.2 1500 (third place, when the pre-existing record was Ryun's 3:33.1)
8:20.67 Steeple (1st place, winning by 4 seconds, when the existing WR --his--was 8:14.0)
13:14.03 5K (1st place, when the existing WR was 13:13.0)
Jipcho was another guy who ended up running in the ITA pro league. He was a huge favorite, running in a "Post" singlet. That's back when we used to have regular indoor meets on Wide World of Sports.
The MonBRO Doctrine wrote:
Honest Opinion wrote:Ron Clarke almost died on the infield? Am I reading this right?
Yeah. He ran like a 90 second last lap and passed out. He came to and didn't know where he was. He was never the same afterwards; I've seen speculation (in Lore of Running for one) that he damaged his heart in that effort.
He learned many years later that he had a mitral valve defect.
newname wrote:
Why die?? wrote:What do you mean "appropriate respect in the US"?! Find me a trie track fan in the states that doesn't completely respect or revere him. Besides, what did you want the Americans to do? Build a statue for a Kenyan?! Oh wait, that's for their president...
I count myself as a BIG track fan and I had forgotten that he Won the Steeple and placed second in the 1500m. I know I had read it before, but if you had asked me who won those medals in 1972 I probably would have given you the wrong names, except for the Steeple. I knew that Keino and Jipcho went 1-2.
I was in the stands that meet.
The guy who won the 10K in 68 got lapped in the heats.
Keino was a man amongst boys. Slow but a winner. I suspect Jipcho was nobbled by the Kenyan management
Wasn't Ryun placed in that particular heat in Munich because USA officials submitted his mile qualifying time as a metric mark ?
The reason Kip Keino took part in the 10,000m in 1968, despite not being known as a 6M/10k type, was simply due to the schedule of events.
It was the first distance running event at the Games and he wanted the honour of being Kenya's first Olympic Gold Medallist, rather than his compatriot Naftali Temu the Commonwealth Champion from Kingston two years earlier, who had outsprinted Ron Clarke on that occasion.
and btw, Kingston, Jamaica is at sea level.
'His tactics were based on what pace he felt could be sustained at altitude. His head rolling was his style and his tactics were not unusual for him.'
Good points but massive last lap pace change is not great plan at altitude in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong there but losing all contact with the leaders is flawed tactics its amazing he managed to close the ground he did
Like I said though its altitude more than tactics which beat him. If he'd gone with Keino he would have blown but he layed off too much to give yourself any chance. You have to adjust tactics to the race
Keino's run is still underrated. Even East African's don't normally pr at altitude
This applies to me. Honestly, what's wrong with me? I'd never bothered to truly read Kip Keino's section in Running With The Legends and just skimmed it. Out of all of the runners that I've been researching and analyzing, this guy might be (and probably should be) one of the biggest sources of inspiration for me. He's someone who seemingly had little "natural talent" if you just glanced at his progression - and at 5'8", 146lbs (built like Ebuya), had a greater BMI than Webb at his heaviest (although not like Symmonds, who has a 3:56 best).Mile times:16: 5:4919: 4:38 (training was 3-5 days per week with soccer and volleyball on off days - also had "rigorous" police training)21ish: 4:1722: 4:07 (start non altitude times)23: (dislocated knee from startled ox, so injury year)24: 4:0125: 3:54 (1965 - became 1st non white under 4 officially with this race - the barrier was demolished - I'm guessing his previous PB was the 4:01)26: 3:53 I'm going to have to read more on him besides the Noakes and Sandrock books. People say he's a "natural talent," but I'd strongly disagree. Natural talent is GF running 4:22/1600 at the end of his freshman year (13 yrs old!?) on little training or Ryun starting with a 5:38 mile at age 15 and bringing that time down to 4:21 before he turned 16."People kept trying to get insight into what made this magnificent athlete tick; was it the diet, the [cow's] blood, or the altitude? 'There is nothing special about me. There will soon be many in Kenya as good as me.'" (source: Sandrock)"To lose or to win is all the same. If I lose, then I know somebody better than I won. If I have done my best, I have represented my nation well." (source: Noakes)This guy is awesome.
Avocado's Number wrote:
Keino's achievements have never been given appropriate respect in the U.S.
One other note, I think this thread mentioned Keino's great 3000 world record of 7:39, but he also broke the 5000 meter record held by Ron Clarke at 13:24 in 1965. Sorry if that had already been noted.
There was a recent thread with a video of Ryun's fall in '72.
No body tripped him.
He went down trying to run himself out of a box. No foul.
Whatever your opinion of RoJo, I think taking him to task for not knowing details of races that were run before he was on the planet is not called for. Why, particularly, should a DivI coach know about that stuff? Better that a coach should know about *training* developments over the last 20-30 years.
Based on previous threads on the topics, quite a number of LRCers know little or nothing about *American* gold medalists like Bob Schul or Horace Ashenfelter--why, particularly, would/should RoJo know about oldtime Kenyans?
In any case, one needs to take the story about Keino's getting out of a sickbed to run the 1500 final, being told by doctors not to run, having to run to the stadium, etc., with a couple shakers full of salt. There was no way he was going to miss the 1500 final--the Kenyan federation had already arranged a team run between Keino and Jipcho (Ben apologized to Ryun about it, some years later).
Ryun was the best in the world in 1966 and 1967; Keino was the best in 1968. I was one of the people at Flagstaff in 1968, when Ryun was, and he was still working his way back from serious ill health (and some injury stuff). Though I hoped for the best for him, it would not have shocked me if he had missed making the US team, much less medaling at the OG. He ran a great race, but was beaten by (to that point) the best ever.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
A footnote (sorry, pun unintentional) about that 1968 final: Marty Liquori was running on a broken foot and finished DFL, IIRC. Sadly, that was to be the only Olympics for him--another man who would have benefited tremendously from World Championships.
PLEASE GO AWAY, FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
York wrote:
There was a recent thread with a video of Ryun's fall in '72.
No body tripped him.
He went down trying to run himself out of a box. No foul.
Funny, tapes from a german television station revealed otherwise.
oldfastguy wrote:
Keino was a man amongst boys. Slow but a winner. I suspect Jipcho was nobbled by the Kenyan management
Jipcho didn't really hit his peak until '73. In '72 he didn't make the final of the 5000m and had only been ranked in '70 in the steeple.
That was a period when Africans tended to disappear between Olympiads so there's no definitive answer but just based on what actually happened and not speculation, I'd say Kip was just better that day. From what I recall, Jipcho had to run past Kantanan to get the silver.
oldfastguy wrote:
Keino was a man amongst boys. Slow but a winner. I suspect Jipcho was nobbled by the Kenyan management
Jipcho didn't really hit his peak until '73. In '72 he didn't make the final of the 5000m and had only been ranked in '70 in the steeple.
That was a period when Africans tended to disappear between Olympiads so there's no definitive answer but just based on what actually happened and not speculation, I'd say Kip was just better that day. From what I recall, Jipcho had to run past Kantanan to get the silver.
Old Miler wrote:
In Munich, Ryun was tripped by a runner from Ghana. In '72 he won the trial in 3:41 & change with a 51 point final 400. Maybe Pekka V. would have won anyway? Was he a blood doper? Maybe Ryun would have won. We'll never know.
I was nuts for Jim Ryun, at 15 in '72 he was my idol, along with Marty Liquori. It was my entry into the sport.
Not as happy with Jim the congressman!
There was no such thing as "blood doping" in 1972. Get over it.
Walt George wrote:
Keino went out at Olympic record pace as a result of his experience in the 5000. He conceitedly assumed he could outsprint the field in the 5000 and was content to run at 14 minute pace. The shock of being outkicked by Gammoudi on the day, decided his tactics for the 1500.
Absolutely false. Jipcho went out hard as had been the plan. Keino was running 3rd place or so for most of the 1st lap. Not record pace. I don't know if there is a youtube video but i remember in Ryuns book he said he saw Jipcho go out too fast knew he could not hold it. Keino was not that far in front of Ryun in the beginning. Then around 800 meters there were quite a few runners between Keino Jipcho & Ryun. and he briefly lost track of who was who. When he saw Keino in the lead initially he thought it was Jipcho & he would fade, a few moments later he realized it was Keino and he had no hope of catching him. Ryun had speed which he relied on to win. In his prime it was very unusual for him to not finish in a 51 last lap. So he frequently let runners get quite a lead. I think he had expressed many times that Keino would have probably won anyway, but he did get them mixed up until it was too late.
Blood Doping, OK this ain't the time or place for it. And it's been on these boards before anyway. This thread is about Kip Keino, his triple attempt in '68 and overall brilliance.