HEPS track and field--OUTDOOR 2012

kibitzer wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up. (And yes, thanks to C/M.) I'll try to get a virtual scoring put together within the next several hours.

This weekend's results certainly had major effects on the ordering in many events. Glad I waited this long.

no problem.

FYI: Larry Ellis usually puts up good performances too, AND they will be doing a 3k for the women.

Here you go...thanks for doing the work:

http://www.royalresults.com/results/2012/Northridge%20Invitational%203.17.12.htm

C/M Runner wrote:

FYI: Larry Ellis usually puts up good performances too, AND they will be doing a 3k for the women.

I have no doubt that whatever I come up with now will be significantly re-written over the coming weekends! However things work out tonight, it'll just be for "gits and shiggles"; for one thing, I'm not sure that most teams will make any serious 4x8 attempts before Penn.

Unrelated sided note: Thanks to the Ivy schools that have chosen to have scoring dual/tri/quad meets during the outdoor season. Well done!

MEN'S VIRTUAL SCORING

You know the drill:

*This is just about what's listed NOW at TFRRS. Sorry if those lists are not complete or up to date.

*I went just with what was listed on TFRRS--didn't consult injury reports, or consider undoable doubles/triples/etc., or look at wind aid.

*Some events, esp. relays and decathlon, have been very lightly contested so far. I didn't create "phantom" relays based on individual performers' times, and I scored the 4x8 as 10 points for Penn, period.

*I kept track of half-points but did not list them in any total (hence, for example, Dartmouth's "1+9=11").

*I tried to be careful, and checked my work as I went, but still could have made mistakes. Apologies for any errors; corrections welcome.

*This all will change mightily over the course of the next two weeks. I'll try to do another scoring after Penn Relays.

Individual running events (IRE): Cornell 99, Princeton 90, Columbia 49, Brown 30, Yale 18, Harvard 17, Penn 5, Dartmouth 1

Field events minus decathlon (FEMD): Cornell 86, Princeton 63, Harvard 51, Penn 13, Brown 11, Yale 10, Dartmouth 9, Columbia 2

IRE + FEMD: Cornell 185, Princeton 153, Harvard 68, Columbia 52, Brown 41, Yale 28, Penn 18, Dartmouth 11

IRE + FEMD + Relays: Cornell 205, Princeton 161, Harvard 74, Columbia 58, Brown 43, Yale 37, Penn 36, Dartmouth 14

IRE + FEMD + Decathlon: Cornell 206, Princeton 153, Harvard 68, Columbia 52, Brown 51, Yale 28, Penn 18, Dartmouth 11

Everything: Cornell 226, Princeton 161, Harvard 74, Columbia 58, Brown 53, Yale 37, Penn 36, Dartmouth 14

WOMEN'S VIRTUAL SCORING

*ALL THE CAVEATS LISTED IN THE PREVIOUS POST APPLY. (More so, if anything--e.g. only 14 points for Dartmouth in the running events?)

Individual running events (IRE): Cornell 101, Columbia 56, Princeton 52, Harvard 36, Brown 30, Yale 28, Penn 24, Dartmouth 14

Field events minus heptathlon (FEMH): Harvard 56, Cornell 48, Brown 29, Penn 28, Columbia 27, Princeton 26, Dartmouth 22, Yale 10

IRE + FEMH: Cornell 149, Harvard 92, Columbia 83, Princeton 78, Brown 59, Penn 52, Yale 38, Dartmouth 38

IRE + FEMH + Relays: Cornell 169, Harvard 93, Princeton 92, Columbia 85, Penn 76, Brown 65, Yale 42, Dartmouth 37

IRE + FEMH + Heptathlon: Cornell 156, Harvard 92, Columbia 83, Princeton 78, Dartmouth 60, Brown 59, Penn 52, Yale 38

Everything: Cornell 176, Harvard 93, Princeton 92, Columbia 85, Penn 76, Brown 65, Dartmouth 61, Yale 42

["Talk amongst yourselves." I'm done for today. Thanks again, C/M.]

thanks

Thanks for posting the projected scoring right now.

It's funny on how many times a Princeton athlete has been named AOTW and yet Cornell is the one who is projected to blow all teams out of the water come Heps. I think every single week so far this season, a male Princeton athlete has been named with AOTW or rookie AOTW. Although, Cornell does have well-rounded squads as they have two to three people who can score in multiple events within a particular event grouping (i.e. throws, jumps, multis, sprints). I would need to see the individual listings to see how strong the Cornell men's distance is compared to the rest of the league, as Cornell is very strong in the throws, jumps, sprints, and multis.

I'm surprised on how tight it could be for the women's competition, particularly for 2nd place right now. I thought Columbia would be more dominant and was expecting more along the lines of what happened at Indoor Heps. Then again, Columbia doesn't have much in terms of throws, and Cornell picks up extra points with the additions of the javelin and discus for the outdoor season.

Only 14 points in the Dartmouth women running events because Abbey D'Agostino hasn't raced yet this season. She'll be opening this weekend at Mt Sacs.

Wow, three weeks until Heps... can't wait. Who's going?

C/M Runner wrote:

Wow, three weeks until Heps... can't wait. Who's going?

Me, looks like. I had hoped to do the Great Saunter (a group walk around Manhattan Island) that Saturday, which would probably have rendered me hors de combat on Sunday; but some knee soreness makes that scenario unlikely. A visit to Phil. is a good second option!

Anyway, thoughts on the projected scoring:

*I should have labeled both posts "for amusement only." Despite holding off for a couple of weeks, I still don't think there've been enough marks to make terribly useful projections.

*For both the men and the women, the most informative line is the one that combines individual track events and the (non-multi) field events. (Scoring that includes relays and/or multis is actively misleading, at this point.)

*Re the men's "dual meet":

In individual running events, Cornell has several holes while Princeton's event coverage is excellent; only CU's strength in the hurdles, esp. the longer race, currently projects them as scoring higher on the track. As Princeton debuts people, and moves its top athletes to a variety of events, the projected track scoring should be a push, or perhaps move slightly in their favor. (Overall scoring in the relays should be just as tight.)

At present PU projects to outscore Cornell in the jumps; if the Big Red's horizontal jumpers develop more consistency on the board, however, they could return to their usual high level of scoring. It's in the throws that Cornell looks to solidly outscore the Tigers; even though Princeton's McCullough is the League's closest thing to a mortal lock, he can still only score ten points. Both squads have a gap in the javelin (which Harvard and Dartmouth and others will be happy to fill).

[I hope we can look for more throws commentary from "Shazzuy" in coming weeks.]

Bottom line: if Cornell's senior-laden squad is to end the season with a win, it'll likely be due to their edge in the throws and decathlon. It's hard to bet against Princeton, though, after what they showed indoors; and in any case I think we can look for another brilliant competition between these two outstanding programs.

*The women's meet projects as a handy Cornell win, but as Dartmouth's distance runners show their strength, the Big Red's current scoring edge in the longer races should be reduced. Hewitt does not seem to be competing for Cornell, but their other sprinters are still doing a good job and they have the League-leading 4x100 time without her; overall, the Big Red's coverage of the track events is the best of any school, but if Princeton's and especially Columbia's stars are healthy, both schools could/should significantly exceed current projections on the track.

In the field, Cornell continues to show fine event coverage--surprisingly, they project no current scoring only in the discus, ordinarily their parade event--but Harvard is loaded with contenders in the jumps and throws, and projects to score the best. Columbia's field stars are capable of scoring well beyond their current projection, but they may take too big a hit in the throws to contend for the overall title this time.

Bottom line: right now Cornell just looks too tough, but I see Harvard and Columbia as genuine contenders, and Princeton has fine event coverage and tremendous scoring potential--they, too, should be right in the thick of things.

Actually, the League's continued progress toward women's parity should be very obvious in this meet: with its distance, field, and heptathlon strength Dartmouth should be well in evidence all weekend; Brown should do some heavy scoring on the track and in the throws; and Penn, competing at home, should do very well in the sprints, hurdles, relays, and field.

What an outstanding women's league this is! I was at the very first Ivy women's meet, 35 years ago--the progress since then boggles the mind.

*I'm sure the Big Red would love to have the scoring remain unchanged, three weeks from now! But with coming relay action and the debuts of major players like D'Agostino and Callahan, we'll see some big shifts.

*The next couple of weeks may, paradoxically, actually make the Cornell coaches' work a little easier, at least in terms of figuring out who will compete. Right now, each of their squads has 20+ individuals with top-six marks (NOT including multis), and another 10-12 with top-ten performances; add a multi-event performer or two (who don't show in other events) and enough individuals to fill out the relays, and that puts you over the 36-athlete roster limit!

I'm sure every coach would like to have the problem, but it cannot be easy to leave people with genuine scoring chances at home; as more of the League's athletes get solid marks this week and next, Cornell's coaches' choices may be clearer.

Well I hope someone will attempt to do a projected scoring with realistic running combos. There are currently two male sprinters who are ranked in the top 6 of the 1-2-4; it is very unlikely either one of them will do all three. Same with those who are ranked in the 800/1500 (and 3k for women) or 5k/10k. It is likely for someone to do a 5k/10k combo if they have a good chance of scoring in both, while (I'm assuming here) the 8/1500 combo has a lower precentage of attemptees than the 5k/10k. And the women have the extra 3k in there so that always puts a wrench in guessing!

But yeah, there is no Hewitt. Is she injured? Sick?

C/M Runner wrote:

But yeah, there is no Hewitt. Is she injured? Sick?

Word on the street is that she picked up an injury--a tough break, after she worked hard to come back from the bad pull in last year's outdoor Heps.

The silver lining for Cornell is that they've put together a pretty good 4x1 without her, and it's all frosh/sophs--should be dominant for a while. (But word also is that they have some sprint talent coming in the class of 2016.) It also appears that they've moved K. Woodford, who was a 200/400 person indoors, down to the 100/200 outdoors in Hewitt's place, though perhaps she'll remain a "possible" for the 4x400.

If Hewitt *is* able to compete at Heps, I figure it'd be in individual events only, and maybe no jumps.

Thinking Penn Relays, gotta hope Columbia goes for the Ivy League glory against defending champs Princeton in the 4xMile. Lions and Tigers combine for the 8 fastest league 1500's this season, all 8 under 3:45, with Princeton's aggregate time faster than Columbia's by 0.16 seconds. With a conspicuously absent Callahan, edge to Columbia w/ Merber's finishing ability?

Ask and ye shall receive... rough report on what I see on tfrrs. I have not been to any Ivy League meets yet this season, so no first hand observations as of yet. I will be at Penn Relays, so will do an update again before Heps.

I am not seeing any huge surprises thus far... a few missing athletes, but things are about where I was thinking they would be, with once exception: Women's Jav. I am little disappointed with Women's Jav... I honestly thought things would be more heated and there would be at least three ladies throwing 150+, maybe 160. Don't get me wrong, it is very close, but not as impressive as I was predicting. Now, that being said, last years Heps champ, Hannah Mayer from Harvard, still has yet to throw this year, and Imbesi's first meet was her first time throwing in comp in over a year and had surgery last year, so things could still heat up. Otherwise, Cornell scores at least 12 points, maybe more like 16, with Penn and Brown picking up 2-6 each. The wild card is Harvard, since Mayer can win but I do not know if she is competing this year.

Men's Jav: Without Craig Kinsley, Men's Jav had really opened up for a solid win for someone other then Brown. The runner up from 2011 was Nick Keeling, also of Brown, but he has yet to throw over 200 feet this season. If Keeling can get it together for Heps, he could give the current #1 at 219 feet, Freshman from Harvard Dean Sullivan, a real run for Heps gold. Nothing super impressive, but a Heps win is a Heps win. Harvard 12-16, Brown 6-10, Dartmouth 4-6 points. The only field event Cornell Men do not score in.

Women's Hammer: I think I stated this in my last post, but with two major hammer throwers lost to graduation, this is much more open then last year. Early favorite is Craker from Brown, as she threw 188 last year and leads the league at 182 this year. Close on her heals is Indoor Weight champ, Adabelle Ekechukwu from Harvard at 181. Adabelle has improved by 10 feet this year from the last, which is a major jump in performance. Not to be forgotten is Erin Rossi from Cornell at 175, which for her is a 4 foot PR from last season. I think that could easily be the 1 2 3 order, but who knows with Heps. Brown 10-14, Harvard 8, Cornell 6, Columbia 1-2 Dartmouth 1-2. **NOTE: Columbia could pick up some much needed points here, but not many. They are very weak on throwers and this is the only throwing event I think they will score in, except MAYBE discus**

Men's Hammer: Soooo, it is really all about who will get 2-6. Conor has this one wrapped up with a bow, just like weight. I love watching him throw, it is ridiculous how effortless he makes it look. If you can make it out to the throwing area at Penn, it will definitely be worth your time this year to see a future Olympian compete. Seriously. Fiedler from Cornell has improved by 10 feet this year to look like a pretty solid lock for second, although the Freshmen from Harvard, Glauser, and Levine from Yale are both within striking distance to take some points away from Cornell. After that, it is a real mix of guys, young and old, in the 170's. Princeton 10, Cornell 5-9, Harvard 5-9, Yale 4-8.

Women's Disc: I saw someone mention that Cornell is very weak here when it has typically been one of their higher scoring events, and this is spot on. Deford and Dishong really do not look to have the chance to score, unless they crank out a major PR or a bunch of other throwers fold under the pressure. Also, another missing thrower thus far is Victoria Buhr from Brown, last year's runner up and season leader in this event. Again, not sure if waiting or injured. This is a tough call for the winner, only a foot separates 1 and 2 currently, but I am going to give the win to Watt from Harvard based on experience and consistency. She has been more consistent this year then Okwelogu from Princeton, and since Watt has been to the Heps before, she knows what to expect. Freshmen jitters may play a big role in this event. Otherwise, I see Dartmouth picking up some much needed points, and Brown as an outside 2nd or 3rd with Craker. Harvard 10, Princeton 6-8, Brown 4-8, Darmouth 2-4, Penn 1-2.

Men's Discus: Whooooo boy, this will be a great event to watch. Obviously everyone is expecting big things from Cornell Freshmen Stephen Mozia, but his Senior teammate Belden is a foot behind, with Levine from Yale another foot behind Belden. The real threat to watch out for is Levine, as he threw 178 at Heps last year to win the event. If he can repeat that performance, he could easily win again. From what I have *heard*, Mozia is more then capable of throwing just as far, but so far, 171 seems to be his sweet spot. Harvard Freshman Liokumovich is looking pretty solid for a medal in the mid 160's, with Braun, ANOTHER Freshman from Cornell at 160, and 2 more Harvard throwers right behind him, one of which is Brucker, who threw 169 last year, but looks to struggle with consistency. Look for 180 to lock a win, or a very close 1 2 3 in the 170's, high 160's. McCullough from Princeton could pick up a point or two, as I hear he can throw the disc in the 160's if he connects. Cornell 15-20, Yale 6-10, Harvard 2-6, Princeton 1-2

Women's Shot: Again, another event where we lost some major throwers to graduation. Look for a shootout between Imbessi from Cornell and Watt from Harvard (and possibly Buhr from Brown if she is competing this season) with a win in the 48 foot range. Watt has struggled to maintain consistency at 47, but is perfectly capable of it. Imbessi won indoor Heps, and I would not be surprised to see a repeat performance. Indoors she threw 49 feet, but looks to be struggling a little outdoors. After that, it is a toss-up for the final 4 scoring spots honestly. There are plenty of ladies throwing 42-44, too close to call honestly. Cornell 8-11, Harvard 8-10, Dartmouth 6-10, Brown 1-4.

Men's Shot: Look for another great competition with the two Cornell throwers vs the two Harvard throwers. Just looking at outdoor performances, it is hard to ignore how far Mozia has thrown, but if he struggles like he did at Indoors Heps, look for Brode or Glauser to take the win, or his own teammate, Belden. Glauser looks to be struggling outdoors, only throwing 55'11 outdoors so far, but as always, anything can happen at Heps. Belden and Brode look pretty even at 57, but Belden has thrown 58 and Brode threw VERY well at last years outdoor Heps to win. Mozia recently threw 61'3" (13th in nation last I checked), showing he has the tools, but seems to struggle with consistency, which is the only reason he is not a lock for Heps gold. Although, if I had to call it, I would be very confident he won't loose again and would go with Mozia. Princeton picks up some more points from Park, who could sneak in for 4th if one of the big 4 throws poorly. Filliano from Dartmouth seems to be missing so far this outdoor season as well. Cornell 14-18, Harvard 13-19, Princeton 2-6.

Shame about Hewitt with the injury. She is a talented athlete.

Thanks for the detailed throwing analysis shazzguy. It is really a helpful guide for us non-throwers.

Speaking of the 4xmile at Penn, I wonder how soon the college entries will be posted for the Relays. It would be awesome to see Columbia and Princeton go head-to-head. The Penn coaches gave a press conference yesterday:

http://www.thepennrelays.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=1720&ATCLID=205415685

Shazzuy, thanks. That analysis adds enormously to my understanding and appreciation of the Ivy throwers and their events.

I used to do some coaching, and have always felt that *as a group* (yes, there were exceptions) the throwers were the best people to work with. They just seemed to be the most down-to-earth and have the best grasp of work ==> success (while having the lowest percentage of nut cases). A post like yours gives them and their events some deserved recognition--particularly important this year, when the throws can determine team titles.

I remember watching Cornell's Doriane Lambelet run, about 30 years ago, and thinking: "She's not just doing it faster, she's doing it different." I get the same feeling when watching McCullough. The hammer is maybe the most beautiful event in t&f anyway; watching him throw drops the "maybe." What a pleasure it is to see this athlete perform.

And what a thrill to see the quality of athletes that are being recruited for the throws! The Ivy throws coaches are bringing in some brilliant performers. With the success that they're having, I realize these women (most of the League's throws coaches are female) may be moving on to positions at other schools in the future; but while they're still in the Heps, they're really helping to make this a "golden age" in the throwing events.

Ivy related news, but it appears Terry Goodenough, a former middle distance coach at Cornell in the 1980s and 1990s, passed away in 2010 (I don't know how many people on here know this but thought to share). There will be a memorial run in his name organized by the University of Waterloo in May of this year.

http://giving.uwaterloo.ca/profiles/t_goodenough.html

http://wikirun.com/Terry_Goodenough

Well, from their website I see that Cornell--which had been scheduled to be at a meet at Buffalo on Saturday--will instead be hosting the meet (sans Buffalo) on Friday.

I'm glad they'll be able to take advantage of Friday's superior (forecasted) weather, but sorry they won't have the competition of Buffalo's *great* bunch of throwers. Those would have been some high-level competitions.

[Unfortunately, *I'll* be in Upstate NY on Saturday--taking my daughter to visit Ithaca College, actually--and am not really looking forward to yet another April Saturday of cool temps and rain. Ugh.]

Good luck to everybody at Princeton this weekend!

No problem, and thanks for the kind words. Throwers often feel like second rate Track and Field Athletes as very few people actively watch their events or cheer for them. Unless it is a stadium, most facilities have the throws off to the side away from the bleachers, or possibly completely out of sight of the track. I think a great example of this is the "Hammer Time" event at the US Olympic Trials. The organizational committee is playing it off as a way to increase the visibility of the Hammer by making it a day earlier then the rest of the trials and holding it in Portland instead of Eugene, but everyone I talk to, unless they are already a thrower, has no idea this is happening. Heck, until recently the Trials website did not even list the date of the Hammer as part of the trials. Many of us see it as a slap in the face, while others are trying to put a positive spin on it. I think its just a way for them to free up space for more media tents in what *should* be the Hammer Field at Hayward Field... Some fellow throwers I have spoken with over the years actually like being isolated, as it keeps the throwing area less cluttered and busy leading to a felling of focus... Personally, I ALWAYS threw better on the rare occasions my teammates would cheer me on. But like you said, if any group of people can handle it and not care, its throwers.

By the way, if anyone out there ever gets the chance to chat with Adam Nelson about track, or the future of the sport in the US, TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY. He is going to be an amazing ambassador for Track and Field (ALL ASPECTS, not just throwing) over the next few generations, and we should be super proud to have him among the ranks of our graduates. Smart, well spoken, polite, with the intelligence and savvy to push our sport into the future. He recently did an interview with Throwers Podcast on a whole slew of track topics. Worth a listen for ALL track and field fans/coaches/athletes.

http://www.throwerspodcast.com/

If anyone knows Rojo or Wejo, they should bug him to get an interview with Adam, I am sure he would be more then happy.

shazzuy wrote:

By the way, if anyone out there ever gets the chance to chat with Adam Nelson about track, or the future of the sport in the US, TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY. He is going to be an amazing ambassador for Track and Field (ALL ASPECTS, not just throwing) over the next few generations, and we should be super proud to have him among the ranks of our graduates. Smart, well spoken, polite, with the intelligence and savvy to push our sport into the future. He recently did an interview with Throwers Podcast on a whole slew of track topics. Worth a listen for ALL track and field fans/coaches/athletes.

http://www.throwerspodcast.com/

If anyone knows Rojo or Wejo, they should bug him to get an interview with Adam, I am sure he would be more then happy.

Iv'e seen some of his interviews about this on Flotrack. It is very sad to see on how athletes who are talented like him but struggle for sponsorship are in that situation. I'll see if I can forward this on to Hepstrack...

I am making a goal to watch the hammer at Heps. Penn Relays I will try, but I want to see the new throwing facilities.

In other news, Alexi Pappas broke the 10-minute barrier in the steeplechase last night at Mt Sac! 9:58.xx! She's only the 2nd collegian to do that this season I believe as a girl from Illinois State ran a 9:51 last night as well.

Cornell's home meet results are up:

http://cornellbigred.com/documents/2012/4/20/Cornell_v._Birmingham_v._Binghamton_Results_2012.pdf

AND

they're already up on tfrrs! Great work!

Some *huge* horizontal jumps, but with a lot of wind; Freitas very impressive in running 48. for 400 and then (presumably) doubling back with a good time in the 400H; two men over seven feet, with Blair at 2.20(!); Ojukwu with a League-leading (and legal) 200; good HH times, with the top women having a legal wind; and the return of Melissa Hewitt with a decent (and wind-legal) 12.13.