Everyone needs to take an ice bath after the race and it will can be a winter sport.
Everyone needs to take an ice bath after the race and it will can be a winter sport.
Back in the 80s both the US Championships (10k) in November and the US Trials (12k) in February were very competitive, probably more so than the "glory years" in the mid 90s. As AK-53 mentioned, the field sizes were different, much smaller at the Trials, but you also rarely had anyone running the Trials who wasn't planning on running at Worlds. Before the 12k/4k split, 9 made the World team. Unfortunately, I think the African dominance has hurt XC much more than the Club/US split. XC was thriving in the 80s with a US championships in November and the Trials in February.
A February championship/trials race makes sense in that XC is a winter sport internationally and Worlds are late March.
Yes, what he says above is true. If you look at the results from 1978-1990 of XC Nationals (in December) you will see that many people showed up after a season on the track (in June/July/August) or a Fall marathon (Salazar ran in 1981 just 4 weeks after his WR marathon), or just as the first race in their "XC season" which usually consisted of Nationals, then World Trials, then Worlds.
Fall nationals was always great because about half of the best pro distance runners would show up and most of the top-10 to top-20 American collegians would show up too. It was always fun to see if the NCAA Champion could win Nationals one week later. They never did. Starting in 1982 Fall Nationals was "The Pat Porter Show". He won every year from 82 until 89 and kept competing after that. Teh race distance was 10k, just like NCAA Nationals.
The World Trials meet (as has been mentioned) was in February, six weeks before the Worlds. Worlds (by this time) had really established itself as a global event and had been the IAAF Championship since 1973. This was before anyone had ever heard of the "long race/short race". So this Trial was 12km and qualified NINE guys, to score SIX at Worlds. It was in 1997 (I think) that the IAAF Championships were split into short and long. Ironically, I think it was meant originally to lessen the domination of the African nations that had existed from about 1981 onward. That backfired.
Holding the National in December still makes sense, and it still should be 10k. It is a great idea to have 3-4 meets as a national series leading up to Fall nationals. They would be as easy to put on as a high school invite, and they would bring huge crowds if done right.
Holding the Worlds Trial still makes sense in FEBRUARY. The Fall Nationals is 16 weeks before WCCC, that is just too far out, and too much time for someone to get sidelined by injury or preparing for something else or just losing form. If you search hard enough (on Wikipedia) they have complete results of WCCC from the 80s and you can see how many of our top guys (mostly 10k runners) made WCCC a priority and showed up ready to race and in good form. The USA placed second many times in that era.
It makes sense to keep holding WCCC every year. I hope they realize their mistake and reinstate it, and this is the only "lost year" in all of history.
The CU alumni runners do deserve a lot of the blame for the interest dying in the US. Because they could have, by this time, all competed in about 10 WCCCs each. Culpepper, Torres, Ritz especially. But a lot of other guys do too. Goucher actually really represented well at WCCC. The beginning of the end for him was in Feb 2000 when he ran and WON both Trials races at 4k and 12k.
The next Huck Finn wrote:
With high school cross country participation numbers at an all time high it is bothersome to see college programs fall and the lack of participation at the club level and now the world.
I say xc died here in America died when usatf made the decision to split xc nationals into "club" and "winter" nationals. Never again has the best college, club and professional runner stand on the same starting line.
If you want to start a bring back xc movement start with one xc race in December. Otherwise we might as well make a monument in blue lake park for the fallen sport of cross country.
Thoughts?
Totally agree.
Back in the day NCAA's were on Monday and Nationals the following Saturday (Thanksgiving weekend). The best collegians lining up with the best open runners in a field of 400. It was awesome.
The club meet is a joke, held in mid-december usually under terrible conditions (after freezing my ass off in Spokane I vowed never again). Don't get me started on the absurdity of having an American XC championship in February when our season is Oct-Nov.
There used to be a separate trial race for those attempting to make the World XC team.
At the international level, it is lamentable that the world champs are now only every other year. The IAAF should get behind the event and rather than pull the rug out from under it. I also liked the idea pressed by Gebreselassie and Tergat to hold the world cross as part of the Winter Olympics. The IOC objects because "it's not on snow or ice." This seems particularly picky for an organization that continues to support ice dancing and synchronized swimming. Next to boxing, cross country is probably THE original sport.
March 23, 1986.
the africans killed the sport wrote:
According to this guy (a Kenyan), the excess of Africans killed cross country. They're about to kill the marathon too. Very boring, that wave of black and lack of diversity.
The Africans killed competitive running. Period.
This may not be the same, but there was a time when black Americans completely dominated basketball. Now it's much more international and multi-ethnic. I'd venture to say that distance running will be the same. At the very least, Kenya's standard of living will increase and thin out the talent base. That's my prediction. So I don't think distance running is dead just because the East Africans are enjoying a successful period.
There is no money in it.
[quote]the africans killed the sport wrote:
According to this guy (a Kenyan), the excess of Africans killed cross country. They're about to kill the marathon too. Very boring, that wave of black and lack of diversity.
The Africans killed competitive running. Period.
This.
Honestly we're to the point that we have the East African winners, and First Non-African "winner". They operate on a different level than the rest of us.
I'm gonna get blasted for saying this, but the day that Dyestat changed to ESPN Rise and moved its forums. At least for American high school xc. Both Dyestat and Letsrun helped lead the resurgence in American distance running. I wouldn't be surprised by a small fall in hs running, at least compared to how we've done the last decade.
I am being totally serious about this
sadfsadf wrote:
Major decisions that killed XC:
*4k/12k split
*Club/USA split
*going to every-other-year for world XC
Check out the results from USA cross the other weekend. Almost nobody showed up.
How to save XC:
*Start a small (3-4 races maybe) autumn pro xc circuit in the US, with prize money, culminating in the USA cross championships
*put cross country in the winter olympics
*reinstate world cross as an annual event
*reintegrate club and USA cross; put both in December.
All of this could work. When the Feb Nats were in NYC (VCPark) I was there, there were very large crowds- hard to get a good spot at the finish if you didn't commit early and it was loud.
Crowds mean you could get sponsors, sponsors mean money. Bring in the best Americans and some Europeans and you'll have a field that people can ID with- I'm American-Italian- bring in an Italians- you get my drift. Canadians, etc.
It would still be ok to have a trials race in Feb.
But PAY the National Team- they are pros- just NFLers don't play in the Super Bowl for free, they shouldn't run for free.
It can be done in Feb with big sponsors, the best runners and large crowd support.
http://www.flotrack.org/video/29724-2007-Cross-Country-Nationals
Ed Smallwood wrote:
Don't get me started on the absurdity of having an American XC championship in February when our season is Oct-Nov.
The college/high school seasons are Oct.-Nov., but the international XC season is Dec.-Mar. (look at the picture on the front page). Having a February XC championship is far from absurd. In my opinion, the December meet (US Champs or Club race) should be kicking off a mini-season in the US concluding with the Trials in February.
no excuses wrote:
It can be done in Feb with big sponsors, the best runners and large crowd support.
http://www.flotrack.org/video/29724-2007-Cross-Country-Nationalshttp://www.letsrun.com/2007/boulderecap82007.php
That's what has to be used to draw in a sponsor. Expenses and a deep prize money payout are what are needed to get top runners and the other guys to make it a strong field.
the africans killed the sport wrote:
According to this guy (a Kenyan), the excess of Africans killed cross country. They're about to kill the marathon too. Very boring, that wave of black and lack of diversity.
The Africans killed competitive running. Period.
When will the Kenyans take up CC skiing? Shouldn't they completely dominate this sport also? Did the Scandinavians kill CC skiing as they almost always dominate this?
I'd love to see what the Kenyans could do if giving an opportunity in CC skiing.
sadfsadf wrote:
Major decisions that killed XC:
*4k/12k split
*Club/USA split
*going to every-other-year for world XC
Check out the results from USA cross the other weekend. Almost nobody showed up.
How to save XC:
*Start a small (3-4 races maybe) autumn pro xc circuit in the US, with prize money, culminating in the USA cross championships
*put cross country in the winter olympics
*reinstate world cross as an annual event
*reintegrate club and USA cross; put both in December.
I agree, except lets have a competition season that starts with clubs in December, then the 3-4 races as a build up to the febuary race.
As it is, the problem with running is that the competition is diluted. There are so many events and so many competitions that you almost never see a race between the best distance runners. Adding another distance race to the Olympics just means that we'll have lower quality in every race. I'd rather see the top 10K guys face off on the track than half of the top 10K guys race on the track while the other half run the XC race. Let's not dilute competition any more.[/quote]
Competition wouldn't be diluted. There are dozens of sub 2:10 marathoners who will never make the olympics b/c of the limit on 3 per event. Adding a 12k XC race would open up the door for more of the guys (and girls) who are insanely talented to race in the Olympics. Or the top 10k runners could attempt a track/xc double. They're not restricted to just one event.
lane 8 wrote:
the africans killed the sport wrote:According to this guy (a Kenyan), the excess of Africans killed cross country. They're about to kill the marathon too. Very boring, that wave of black and lack of diversity.
The Africans killed competitive running. Period.
When will the Kenyans take up CC skiing? Shouldn't they completely dominate this sport also? Did the Scandinavians kill CC skiing as they almost always dominate this?
I'd love to see what the Kenyans could do if giving an opportunity in CC skiing.
Cross-Country skiing as a spectator sport or as a world wide sport is nowhere near what distance running is. In Europe major marathons are major sports events.
I'm warming up to the idea of a short pro circuit in Oct/Nov/Dec, culminating in USA Cross. But USATF can't be trusted to put it on. They'd f**k it up, just like everything else. No, it'd have to be some other group.
Cross country meets are pretty easy to put on. All you need is a decent venue, some runners, and a prize purse and you'll get runners to show up. Big question: Should a pro circuit have a team component to it (i.e. would there be prize money for, say, the top 3 teams of 5? Asics aggies vs. Nike farm team vs. Indiana elite, etc.?), or just be a field of individuals.
Having a team component would certainly make the races bigger.
an older guy wrote:
The college/high school seasons are Oct.-Nov., but the international XC season is Dec.-Mar. (look at the picture on the front page). Having a February XC championship is far from absurd. In my opinion, the December meet (US Champs or Club race) should be kicking off a mini-season in the US concluding with the Trials in February.
Problem is, we have an indoor season so collegians won't be part of a Dec.- March XC season.
The system worked fine for us when Nats were on Thanksgiving weekend and the World XC Trials were in Feb. But since it wasn't broke they had to fix it.