How many miles to sub three?

diminishing marginal returns wrote:

The OP should be running up 60-70 MPW if he/she wants to break 3.

he/she? If the OP is a she then she is already the Top 1%, if not Top 0.1%. Lol.

I am surprised by the number of people that think that Sub 3 on 50 MPW would be so difficult and require some great talent. I don't even realy consider myself a real runner. Perhaps I have under estimated my talent or the cross over benefits from years of canoe racing (150-200 hrs/year for the last 10+ years). I feel like 50 MPW for 6 months with the right worksouts would be more than enough. I am currently training for a hilly 30K (Stu's) and I am targeting 7 flat pace. I will go into the race with 20MPW average for the last 20 weeks, maybe 30 MPW average for the last 10 weeks. If the weather cooperates I anticipate hitting my goal.

I guess I hit it heavy over the summer and see how it goes.

It's because 26 miles is a long a$$ way to run. I'm almost 53, have run 13 years and 26 marathons, and only came close to sub-3 twice. The marathon is best run (for most of us) at a fairly even pace. Maybe you think 6:50 pace is easy for you. Try and maintain it after 20 miles. That's when most most marathons are won or lost. I remember someone named Lance a few years ago who was an aerobic beast and BARELY ran a sub-3, with pacers to hand him water botttles, etc.

Averaged 46.3 mpw for 16 weeks prior to my 2nd marathon.

Ran 3:05 (1:22 / 1:43)

Took one week off. Averaged 42.5 mpw for next 8 weeks and then ran 2:52 (1:25 / 1:27)

I ran my first marathon at age 30 last year in 3:03:xx (1:34/1:29) in near ideal conditions after 12 weeks at 50 mpw and I don't consider myself to have much inherent talent. I'll probably run another one in the near future and I really think just upping the mileage to my current 70-75 should get me under 3 hours. The way I see it, if at any point I'm not comfortable getting out for a 10-12 miler per day on singles then how the hell am I going to be confident that I can run the first 18 feeling reasonably relaxed? Like another poster stated: 26.2 miles is a long damn way no matter how you cut it! So far so good - I've found that keeping a lot of those extra miles easy (not slow, just whatever feels easy that day) makes 70 mpw no more burden than 50 mpw was last year. Good luck!

For me, regular 70 MPW with a few weeks at 80+ during a 16-week 70-85 MPW plan from the Advanced Marathoning book. At the time I was 6'3" and 175.

I tried to hit sub 3 off of less mileage but couldn't get faster than 3:06.

SUB THREE GUY? wrote:

I am surprised by the number of people that think that Sub 3 on 50 MPW would be so difficult and require some great talent. I don't even realy consider myself a real runner. Perhaps I have under estimated my talent or the cross over benefits from years of canoe racing (150-200 hrs/year for the last 10+ years). I feel like 50 MPW for 6 months with the right worksouts would be more than enough. I am currently training for a hilly 30K (Stu's) and I am targeting 7 flat pace. I will go into the race with 20MPW average for the last 20 weeks, maybe 30 MPW average for the last 10 weeks. If the weather cooperates I anticipate hitting my goal.

I guess I hit it heavy over the summer and see how it goes.

You think you "under estimated" your own talent because you THINK you can run a sub 3 marathon based on 50 MPW for months? I don't follow your logic.

I'm not trying to be mean, just realistic. First, running a 30K at 7 minute pace is not comparable to running a marathon at 6:51 pace. The last miles are all that matters. Second, running a 3:25 on 25 MPW simply doesn't mean that you are capable of running sub 3 on 50 mpw. But, good luck. Keep up posted.

Focus on two things:

1)Getting your long run up to a comfortable three hours 4.5 weeks prior to goal race.

2) getting your M-pace run up to 16 miles 3.5 weeks prior

alternate your longer runs with your M-pace tempos every week until the above are achieved. ALl else is back filling the mileage and staying healthy.

I think you are severely underestimating what it takes to take off nearly 30 MINUTES off your time. The guy that ran a sub-3 in the marathon you ran was FINISHED by by the time you got to mile 22. Just sayin'.

SUB THREE GUY? wrote:

I am surprised by the number of people that think that Sub 3 on 50 MPW would be so difficult and require some great talent. I don't even realy consider myself a real runner. Perhaps I have under estimated my talent or the cross over benefits from years of canoe racing (150-200 hrs/year for the last 10+ years). I feel like 50 MPW for 6 months with the right worksouts would be more than enough. I am currently training for a hilly 30K (Stu's) and I am targeting 7 flat pace. I will go into the race with 20MPW average for the last 20 weeks, maybe 30 MPW average for the last 10 weeks. If the weather cooperates I anticipate hitting my goal.

I guess I hit it heavy over the summer and see how it goes.

SUB THREE GUY? wrote:

I am surprised by the number of people that think that Sub 3 on 50 MPW would be so difficult and require some great talent. I don't even realy consider myself a real runner. Perhaps I have under estimated my talent[..]

Like someone else mentioned before, you should not DISRESPECT the Marathon. Or, just ignore what I just said and let the Marathon teach you how to show respect.

An anecdote that I like to tell and that's suitable here: a friend of mine runs Marathons and ran 5 or so (PR 3:20) before he thought about trying to break 3. He worked his a$$ off and it took him 4 or 5 failed attempts. And it wasn't even close, like 3:05 or so. He continued and one day he ran 2:56 EASY. Moral of this story: respect the Marathon, work hard and you can do it. But it won't come easy.

Thanks for the input everyone.

First of all, I respect the marathon. I understand that a lot of hard work goes in to running one. I am used to hard work and hard training, I don't expect it to come easy, I wouldn't want it to Like I said I have a very substantial endurance background, I like hard work and I know how to train for long distance events. I find efficeiny while tried is the most important thing. We commonly do canoe race workouts were we go 4 hours easy then do a 1.5 hour workout to prepare us to be quick and efficient in the last couple hours of a race. For true endurance training you need to get tired before you start really training. These types of workouts are what my first attempt lacked. I did a 2 long runs of 18 miles at about 8 min pace.

I spoke recently with a women with a similar background (many years of 100's of hours on the water at an elite level). She trained for her first marathon and peaked at 60MPW averaging 50 for the specific cycle. She won the marathon in 3:07 at 41 years old.

There seems to be people on here that say it is possible. So thats good enough for me to try. I expect it to be hard work and expect it to hurt.

More important what workouts should be included?

I am thinking 20 easy then 5 at MP?

Maybe an hour easy then long (2-3M) Intervals at pace with shorter (1M) rest

Thanks again

SUB THREE GUY? wrote:

I am thinking 20 easy then 5 at MP?

Lol, running isn't canoeing. You can't just do 20 easy then 5 at MP in training. You will be tired for two weeks.

There is a big difference between no impact sports (cycling/canoeing) and running. In the former you can go for hours and hours and hours and a couple of days later you'll feel fine. Don't try that in running. Essentially, don't assume you know a thing about Marathon training just because you know the canoe. Buy a book or read some more on this board.

I agree, completely different animals. I have said that the last few miles of my marathon were tougher than the last few miles of any 10 hour canoe race I have been in. When you are hurting running even walking hurts, in canoeing (no impact) you can still be efficient while tired with less pain and less slowing down.

Yes, I know nothing about marathon training. But here is what I do know. Having never ran before, I did 15 weeks of half a$$ed marathon training, blew up and ran 3:28. I am currently training for 30K very hilly (Stu's) in 7 flat pace, I should hit that averaging maybe 30 MPW for the last 10 weeks. I could argue 7 flat pace at Stu's 30K is equal to 30K at 6:51 on a pancake flat course.

I have all summer to smartly up my mileage and workout volume. I am not going out tomorrow and doing 20 then 5.

I think you need to get a bit faster first. 30 min for 5M and 1:25 for the half.

diminishing marginal returns wrote:

BostonSub3 wrote:

For the average talented runner, 50mpw should get you there.

Not sure what you mean by "average talented runner." I think that there are very few talented runners who could run a sub 3 on 50mpw. One exception: former college runners who recently finished school.

Sure, there'll be a few weeks where they're over 50 before they taper, but a good 6 months averaging 50 should do it for a healthy male under 40. Would it be easier to get sub-3 by cranking that up to 65-70, sure. If you're closing in on 40 you're going to need a longer time to acclimate, probably closer to 9 months.

Now if you're saying "I have a marathon in 3 months and I just bought a pair of running shoes with 50MPW get me a sub-3?" I'd have to say no.

SUB THREE GUY? wrote:

I am surprised by the number of people that think that Sub 3 on 50 MPW would be so difficult and require some great talent. I don't even realy consider myself a real runner. Perhaps I have under estimated my talent or the cross over benefits from years of canoe racing (150-200 hrs/year for the last 10+ years). I feel like 50 MPW for 6 months with the right worksouts would be more than enough. I am currently training for a hilly 30K (Stu's) and I am targeting 7 flat pace. I will go into the race with 20MPW average for the last 20 weeks, maybe 30 MPW average for the last 10 weeks. If the weather cooperates I anticipate hitting my goal.

I guess I hit it heavy over the summer and see how it goes.

When I was 31 I ran a marathon in 2:54 off an average 40 mpw with probably 3 weeks above 60 (the weeks I did 20 mile runs). So what you are talking about is not crazy if you have some ability.

SUB THREE GUY? wrote:

I am not going out tomorrow and doing 20 then 5.

Not sure if that was clear enough: you should NEVER do 20 then 5 at MP. This is guaranteed to leave you empty.

Maybe 16 and 4 or something like that...

Hopkinton wrote:

I think you need to get a bit faster first. 30 min for 5M and 1:25 for the half.

This is also very good advise. I already mentioned the HMx2+10min rule and that you should run a sub 1:25 half first.

Even more so, before wasting time and energy on the HM, I second the 5mi/30min challenge.

A lot of good varsity HS runners that just run for fun in college on the club team can break 3 hours very easily running about 40 miles a week. I know this because they are my friends and I run with them. Note, these 40 mpw are not that hard core, about 1 or 2 workouts a week.The average D1 runner would run a LOT faster than 3 hours for a marathon.It depends what your definition of talented is and the context. For the general public, I think that 20 minutes for a 5K is talented. However, for real runners, I think that 15:30 is good.

diminishing marginal returns wrote:

BostonSub3 wrote:

For the average talented runner, 50mpw should get you there.

Not sure what you mean by "average talented runner." I think that there are very few talented runners who could run a sub 3 on 50mpw. One exception: former college runners who recently finished school.