thanks for the comments/advice
my question is how does one know the he/she is FT or ST besides doing biopsy?
what about the new runner, clearly would appear more FT than ST, poor aerobically developed
thanks for the comments/advice
my question is how does one know the he/she is FT or ST besides doing biopsy?
what about the new runner, clearly would appear more FT than ST, poor aerobically developed
I guess that what Renato Canova says that the Kenyans are able to run intervals faster with long recovery than most of the Europeans of similar performance results it´s not due only to the altitude factor, but also to the different fiber type of most East Africans (Kenya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Zambia, Tanzania) that got more ST percent than Europeans.
I also think that Long intervals and long fast continuous runs and also mileage volume, that are training elements, training variants that everybody shall run, but the East Africans they fit very well on that kind of rich specific and long workouts because the East Africans they are ST runners mostly.
I didn´t no biopsies but I guess that i´m right.
Contrary, the West Africans from where some good sprinters come from, like the Nigerian-Portuguese Francis Obikuelu or from where all black Americans sprinters their origin come from that ones are FT individuals. See how fast they are.
Asians, relate to europeans or caucasian americans are also predominant ST fiber, and it´s the reason why the Japanese, Chineese etc they also they go well with mileage training, long runs, long workouts, 20k continous workout runs, and they rarely are fast as the Caucasians, europeans or West Africans or black Americans that the root is from West of Africa.
runner40 wrote:
thanks for the comments/advice
my question is how does one know the he/she is FT or ST besides doing biopsy?
what about the new runner, clearly would appear more FT than ST, poor aerobically developed
On this thread John Hadd did some clues of how does one knows if the runner is FT or ST besides the biopsy
2 kinds of runners. Which are you?
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2375989&thread=2375989Aerobic trining by daily runs works for both types namely the new runner. In all the rest you might follow what i said erlier about the different training requirement for the ST and ST type. But you nee to individualize your training relate to the runner you are, what´s training indiidualisation really and this doesn´t work by cook menu or internet advice without know the runner profile.
Antonio, am I correct in saying that Mamede never did fundamental style workouts like Renato recommends, i.e. long fast runs of up to 30km? Will a FT reach their potential without a focus on such work?
I am a FT type and have been doing a Hadd-like base for the last 1.5 months, working toward running ~10 miles at about 89-90% max HR. I am progressing well. Would I do well to add 12x400 w/ 100m jog at this point if my peak race isn't until June?
From the old Hadd threads, I think Hadd liked 200s at 5k pace with 200m fast jogs rest.
You say you are FT but how fast are you for say 400m?
markeroon wrote:
Antonio, am I correct in saying that Mamede never did fundamental style workouts like Renato recommends, i.e. long fast runs of up to 30km? Will a FT reach their potential without a focus on such work?
Yes he didn´t. Most of his runs were just easy runs.
30kms lolng and fast seems to me too much for a beginner. But you can run fast runs as SPECIAL workouts. If you are a FT runner i advice you to take some short breaks of walk or easy jog during the long fast run.
markeroon wrote:
I am a FT type and have been doing a Hadd-like base for the last 1.5 months, working toward running ~10 miles at about 89-90% max HR. I am progressing well. Would I do well to add 12x400 w/ 100m jog at this point if my peak race isn't until June?
Excuse me. John Hadd, when he was alive he told me several times that he didn´t agree with training heritage, or training disciples and in his opinion the training authorship dies with the coach autour. Therefore I don´t want to dismiss John Hadd and i wouldn´t advise you about John Hadd training.
Antonio,
Can you give an example of breaks in a long fast run? Will 30 seconds do it? How many breaks? Is the goal to make it like 400s at 10k pace on the road or like 3 x 5k?
Antonio Cabral wrote:
Yes he didn´t. Most of his runs were just easy runs.
30kms lolng and fast seems to me too much for a beginner. But you can run fast runs as SPECIAL workouts. If you are a FT runner i advice you to take some short breaks of walk or easy jog during the long fast run.
Thank you kindly for your suggestion, and I understand your position. Also, I'm sorry about the loss of your friend.
0^&=aBHU wrote:
From the old Hadd threads, I think Hadd liked 200s at 5k pace with 200m fast jogs rest.
You say you are FT but how fast are you for say 400m?
Definitely FT. I haven't run an open 400 since high school, but I'd guess 52-high, maybe 53. I can run a couple of 25 second 200m repeats toward the end of a workout like 14-16x200m. My 800m time is 1:58.1, and I'm training for 1500/5000m.
Just to be clear, being FT doesn't necessarily mean that you're extremely fast at short distances. Thanks for the workout suggestion.
"Why do you think that most of the Kenyan runners that Renato Canova coaches they prefer and they get rich shape condition with long intreval recovery and Renato long intervals fits perfect in that Kenyan runners ? "
--------------------------------------------
I'm assuming by the long intervals you are speaking of the workouts like?
- 3x3000
- 1x3000+1x2000+400s.....
- 6x2000
Great thread input!
markeroon,
Right, FT is not a sprinter. But earlier in the thread we saw:
FT/MAMEDE (13.08,54 pb)build up for 5k goal run.
- 10X300m/43-44secs pace rec=100m in about 50s-40secs
FT/ST RUI SILVA (13.19,20 pb)build up for 5k goal
- 15X300m/44-45secs pace rec=100m in about 50s-60secs
So now with your times Antonio will have a feeling as to weather you are more like Mamede or Silva and may be able to be more specific.
0^&=aBHU wrote:
markeroon,
Right, FT is not a sprinter. But earlier in the thread we saw:
FT/MAMEDE (13.08,54 pb)build up for 5k goal run.
- 10X300m/43-44secs pace rec=100m in about 50s-40secs
FT/ST RUI SILVA (13.19,20 pb)build up for 5k goal
- 15X300m/44-45secs pace rec=100m in about 50s-60secs
So now with your times Antonio will have a feeling as to weather you are more like Mamede or Silva and may be able to be more specific.
Did not notice this. Rui exists somewhere in the middle?
0^&=aBHU wrote:
Antonio,
Can you give an example of breaks in a long fast run? Will 30 seconds do it? How many breaks? Is the goal to make it like 400s at 10k pace on the road or like 3 x 5k?
This is something that you might discover for yourself.
The workout design/format is what´s part of the training indiidualisation.
The only norm for one FT is that you don´t stop and walk during the interval recovery, or just stop and walk for a very brief/short lenght periodof time.
However i want give some examples that might fit on you just that you might understand.
fast run done with 4min to 10min to 15min to 20 min/fast with 1 to 4min/easy jog.
markeroon wrote:
Definitely FT. I haven't run an open 400 since high school, but I'd guess 52-high, maybe 53. I can run a couple of 25 second 200m repeats toward the end of a workout like 14-16x200m. My 800m time is 1:58.1, and I'm training for 1500/5000m.
Just to be clear, being FT doesn't necessarily mean that you're extremely fast at short distances. Thanks for the workout suggestion.
You are right. While you might run fast 400m whatever fast in short distance doesn´t mean that you are a FT necessarly.
Look. 53secs is what might do one El Gerrouj or Gebrelassie or one Bekele on the last lap of 5k-10k run. That doesn´t take them as FT necessary.
What defines one FT runner from one St is the quality to take energy from the aerobic or anaerobic energy mostly.
My take on it is that Mamede is about as much a sprinter, with 47 second 400m speed, as you can possibly train to run 10k. Silva on the other hand is about as much of a ST that can run 3:30.X for 1500m which likely requires 49-50 second 400m speed.
My question is how did their coaches narrow down which 300m workout was right for each?
More generally, for someone like makeroon, who is not world class, how would you determine his 300m workout?
Would you just stick with 10 reps, 3k speed and 100m jogs?
Or at makeroon's level does it matter and most any stimulus will keep him improving and getting to the max number of reps doesn't really speed things up?
0^&=aBHU wrote:
markeroon,
Right, FT is not a sprinter. But earlier in the thread we saw:
FT/MAMEDE (13.08,54 pb)build up for 5k goal run.
- 10X300m/43-44secs pace rec=100m in about 50s-40secs
FT/ST RUI SILVA (13.19,20 pb)build up for 5k goal
- 15X300m/44-45secs pace rec=100m in about 50s-60secs
So now with your times Antonio will have a feeling as to weather you are more like Mamede or Silva and may be able to be more specific.
On Fernando Mamede the FT were more predominant that Rui Silva. I know because both did biopsy.
You might understand that Mamede, despite the only olymic or world medal that i got was 3rd in the world cross country champs, he starts his career in the junior catagory as a 400m runner. In 72 and 76 olympics he did run one stage of the 4X400m on the olympics on the portuguese team selection.
Simply we will never know what was Mamede potential to run 400m because soon he moves to 800-1500 events and later to 5000m-1000m-and cross country and while his training was exclusively for that distance events he quit out of train and compete in 400m.
Rui Silva is a different case. He is also a FT runner, but he never did 400m - he got no 400m Pb because he never did, and 800m he rarely does. Rui early career as youth what he did was road runs (mile road to 7k) and also cross country (3k to 4k). As junior he did compete in the World Junior Champs in Sydney where he did 3:40. From that on he just specialized on 1500m (indoor and outdoor) and 3000m (indoor). From time tio times he did one road run or cross run but the training main target was 1500m.
Rui is very fast mainly because if the run doesn´t start at very fast pace he is to keep aerobic mostly until the final lap or the last 200m.
But Rui related to Mamede, Mamede got more FT fibers and if Mamede we might say that got more talent than Rui. No way. Simply Mamede got phychic problems that were transfer to the competitions.
You see. When one runner on the portuguese method or on my own does intrevals with parcimony but week after week after week, does repeat the same intreval standards, after a few attempts i´m able to know what the runner can perform one one certain workout, or every workout.
That is not the kind of training that it take a long period out of intervals.
That is the kind of training that you start with some race pace specifics as soon as you are able.
Besides we don´t want to reach the runners hexaustion, or intrevals at all-flat out all the time. Of course it can be happen some progress in the intreval average, but it´s not necessary to run full-pace always.
Rui Silva coach did advice Rui to run slowly intervals that Rui was able on that day. After the first interval and sees that Rui run it faster than it should he said to Rui during the interval recovery of the firt interval "Rui you got to run it slowly". Rui Silva coach said to me that if in one workout of 20X400m rec=50secs, Rui did start with sub 60:00secs (56-57 eventuallY) he would break down after 8 to 10 interval sets. However if he starts in about 60:00secs average, he was able to continue and speed up the pace teh way he was able to run from the 10th to the 20th interval in about 55s-56secs.
What´s really important on intreval training is the total average pace and that teh total number of intrevals is done with with a closed amplitude.
If you run 60s but also 55s that is 57.5 average, but it´s open amplitude
If you run 58.5s and 56.5s that is also 57.5 average but it´s closed amplitude and it´s better.
Brilliant, thanks to you both.
Antonio, thanks so much for so much great information. I'm not sure I have processed it all but using the idea of being able to do it week after week suggests starting with a low number of reps at the correct speed relative to race pace and adjusting the number so you do not reach exhaustion. Does that sound right?
Antonio Cabral wrote:
On Fernando Mamede the FT were more predominant that Rui Silva. I know because both did biopsy.
Even without a biopsy I could see that Mamede ws FT (background in 400m) but if Rui didn't have a biopsy would it not be difficult to label him FT or ST?
At the end of his career with all his 1500 times and his 5000 times and a few 800s and workout data not really. But as you have mentioned, early in his career any difference could be masked by the type of training he was doing.
I think Antonio's description of how Silva responds to starting workouts too fast and the tactics he uses to run his best 1500s would tip his coach off. For an experienced coach, with other runners to compare too, it shouldn't be hard to narrow things down quickly with more supporting data each week.