2 runners die today @ Philly Marathon

This guy wasn't some BOP athlete that was unprepared. More info - http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3645137

What a sad story. Do you all buy into the caffeine risk with running? I seem to remember Wejo (I think) posting about Kenyans lining up at Starbucks before marathons and really pigging out on coffee. And there's a lot more caffeine in coffee than an energy gel.

Sleuth wrote:

This guy wasn't some BOP athlete that was unprepared. More info -

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3645137

Taken from the results:

G Chris Gleason #619

CLIFTON PARK, NY

Age: 40 Gender: M

05:18:03

Distance MAR

Clock Time 05:18:23

Chip Time 05:18:03

Overall Place 9128 / 10181

Gender Place 5511 / 5970

Division Place 898 / 953

Age Grade 40.2%

Pace 12:08.0

10K 0:43:29

Half 1:31:08

30K 2:10:52

As always, I hope we hear more about what actually happened to him (both of them) so that we can learn from a tragedy.

As for the caffeine issue, it did make me pause to think. I think it may very well be a related issue in some of the marathon related CA's, but is it one we all need to worry about, or is it a very small trigger to some other underlying issues?

VF Runner wrote:

Taken from the results:

G Chris Gleason #619

CLIFTON PARK, NY

Age: 40 Gender: M

05:18:03

Distance MAR

Clock Time 05:18:23

Chip Time 05:18:03

Overall Place 9128 / 10181

Gender Place 5511 / 5970

Division Place 898 / 953

Age Grade 40.2%

Pace 12:08.0

10K 0:43:29

Half 1:31:08

30K 2:10:52

As always, I hope we hear more about what actually happened to him (both of them) so that we can learn from a tragedy.

As for the caffeine issue, it did make me pause to think. I think it may very well be a related issue in some of the marathon related CA's, but is it one we all need to worry about, or is it a very small trigger to some other underlying issues?

So that finish time must be wrong as he crossed 30k in 2:10...so taking 3 hours to go 12k ain't right. Weird that he has a finish time?

celiac dood wrote:

virginia runner wrote:

any more details on these guys? What their level of training and was? I think stats should be put out there to show the general public that marathons can be dangerous if you're not properly trained.

Lack of training has nothing to do with people dying in marathons.

a - that is correct

b - the 21 year-old was not running the marathon

c - The 40 year-old came 10th in AG and 44th overall in the 2011 Lake Placid Ironman

My guess is he is the one who collapsed before the finish and one of two things happened: a)His chip passed near enough to the finish line to register (as part of his belongings?) after the fact or b) someone who knew he had passed took his chip across the line as a symbolic gesture and/or for closure.

Let's go over a few things:

1) There is very little evidence that caffeine has any effect on your risk of sudden cardiac death. The best I can find is this:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/190_01_050109/ber10142_fm.html

in which a young man consumed a _LOT_ of caffeine and raced motocross all day.

2) Sudden cardiac death is usually due to arrhythmia, not arterial blockage

3) Sudden cardiac death has not been shown to strike out-of-shape runners disproportionally more than in-shape runners. There's just a heck of a lot more out-of-shape runners than in-shape runners. We all remember Ryan Shay. Here in MN there was a great HS basketball player that dropped dead after winning a game. He wasn't fat or out of shape. It's usually a genetic condition (enlarged heart or other abnormality) that's triggered by exercise

4) For the population, it is FAR MORE DANGEROUS to NOT run than it is to run. I'm always reminded of this:

http://rwdaily.runnersworld.com/2008/06/non-runner-dies-while-not-running.html

Of course everyone assumes that marathons are dangerous and risky because a handful of people die from sudden cardiac death in them every year. But you never hear about the thousands of other people who die from sudden cardiac death while NOT at a marathon, and the many thousands who die from heart disease and other sedentary-life-related problems who might not have died if they WERE avid runners.

5) If kicking hard at the end of a marathon (or any race) put undue stress on your heart, Kenyans would be dropping dead left and right. There's no evidence or reason to believe that a hard kick will stress your heart any more than a slow kick. In fact once you get past 10k pace or so by the end of your marathon, your heart will be beating at its max anyways, so any additional speed will not put ANY more stress on the heart.

"There's no evidence or reason to believe that a hard kick will stress your heart any more than a slow kick. In fact once you get past 10k pace or so by the end of your marathon, your heart will be beating at its max anyways, so any additional speed will not put ANY more stress on the heart."

you lose all credibility when you post malarkey like this. i don't know if kicking at the end of a marathon increases the risk of a heart attack but i do know that you are 100% wrong if you think that anyone can run 30K+ at a max heart rate. get real. kicking at the end of any race definitely raises one's heart rate.

Why don't people just wait for the post-mortems before jumping to conclusions?

What is this, the Nancy-effin-Grace show?

Condolences to the families anyway.

Because, likely, there won't be any post mortems. Quite often, in cases like this you just can't tell exactly what happenend.

Thanks for the info. When you get hooked up to an EKG for your annual physical, would they screen for arrhythmias?

Clearing the air wrote:

Let's go over a few things:

1) There is very little evidence that caffeine has any effect on your risk of sudden cardiac death. The best I can find is this:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/190_01_050109/ber10142_fm.html

in which a young man consumed a _LOT_ of caffeine and raced motocross all day.

5) If kicking hard at the end of a marathon (or any race) put undue stress on your heart, Kenyans would be dropping dead left and right. There's no evidence or reason to believe that a hard kick will stress your heart any more than a slow kick. In fact once you get past 10k pace or so by the end of your marathon, your heart will be beating at its max anyways, so any additional speed will not put ANY more stress on the heart.

Why do most of the marathon runners who die, die at the end of a race? Do you think the strain on your heart of say running a 10k all out is SLIGHTLY LESS THAN RUNNING A MARATHON? hmm. I don't know. Durr.

Famous runners from around the world visit the doctor who told me the advice about caffeine, baby aspirin and kicking hard at the end of a marathon. I even spoke to a former NYC marathon champion while waiting in the guys office. If you are a professional then do everything possible to win. If you are not a pro, why risk it? Kick from further out. If you are an amateur and have an insane kick at the end of the marathon, you clearly paced yourself incorrectly anyway.

Funny, I cramped pretty badly on my first marathon that I couldn't even kick in even if I wanted to...

But yeah 40 years old is way too young...Damn you Ed!

Drdudelar wrote:Famous runners from around the world visit the doctor who told me the advice about caffeine, baby aspirin and kicking hard at the end of a marathon. I even spoke to a former NYC marathon champion while waiting in the guys office. If you are a professional then do everything possible to win. If you are not a pro, why risk it? Kick from further out. If you are an amateur and have an insane kick at the end of the marathon, you clearly paced yourself incorrectly anyway.

When you say "Famous runners from around the world visit the doctor who told me...", you mean you read it here right?

Or one of the other on-line articles saying much the same thing.

I wonder whether the new tiered registration policies of the Boston Athletic Association are possibly contributing to these deaths of near 3 hr flat runners near the finish line. No longer are they running just to meet 3:10 or 3:15, but now they are induced to try to sprint at the end beyond their limits to attain BQ-5 minutes or BQ-10 minutes to better improve their chances of getting into Boston the following year.

The marathon is not inherently dangerous but it may be more dangerous for amateur middle aged men who are very fit but are pushing their limits to qualify for Boston or to run a good time. There seem to be profile developing in these deaths. These are fit middle age men who can run it in about 3 hours or a little less and are pushing it as hard as they can. I am not saying if you are in this group, you should not run the best you can or sacrifice your goals. You should be careful as far as caffeine consumption and pick up the pace gradually near the finish and not blast the last 400 meters. I wonder if they are testing any of these guys for PEDs post-mortem? I would not put it past an weekend warrior to dope to break 3 hrs or qualify for Boston. This may be why we are seeing blowups. Just a theory....

long sox wrote:

Drdudelar wrote:Famous runners from around the world visit the doctor who told me the advice about caffeine, baby aspirin and kicking hard at the end of a marathon. I even spoke to a former NYC marathon champion while waiting in the guys office. If you are a professional then do everything possible to win. If you are not a pro, why risk it? Kick from further out. If you are an amateur and have an insane kick at the end of the marathon, you clearly paced yourself incorrectly anyway.

When you say "Famous runners from around the world visit the doctor who told me...", you mean you read it here right?

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-11-01/news/30347967_1_lewis-g-maharam-sudden-death-caffeine

Or one of the other on-line articles saying much the same thing.

No, I got the information straight from my doctor. Good try, thanks for playing.

That "Two Runners Die at Philadelphia Marathon" article seemed to use the two deaths as a piece of sensationalism for a lead in and then abruptly transitioned into detailed results and descriptions of the race for the top finishers. I am not sure what the author of the death story/athletic event article was expecting from the readers.

heart ache wrote:

"There's no evidence or reason to believe that a hard kick will stress your heart any more than a slow kick. In fact once you get past 10k pace or so by the end of your marathon, your heart will be beating at its max anyways, so any additional speed will not put ANY more stress on the heart."

you lose all credibility when you post malarkey like this. i don't know if kicking at the end of a marathon increases the risk of a heart attack but i do know that you are 100% wrong if you think that anyone can run 30K+ at a max heart rate. get real. kicking at the end of any race definitely raises one's heart rate.

You lose all credibility when you demonstrate that you don't know how to read.

VF Runner wrote:

My guess is he is the one who collapsed before the finish and one of two things happened: a)His chip passed near enough to the finish line to register (as part of his belongings?) after the fact or b) someone who knew he had passed took his chip across the line as a symbolic gesture and/or for closure.

This is probably what happened. He was running fairly even splits (@7 min. pace through 30K).