Why was Alberto Salazar's WR at NYC marathon disallowed?

International Technical Nerd!

Thank you Wejo! This will probably get deleted too but seriously, whoever moderates your boards is both awful and trigger happy at the same time. Mr. Katz didn't complain about it, so what's the moderator's beef?

I have nothing against Mr. Katz and he sounds like a decent fella from his posts.

I simply know what I saw and Alberto got royally screwed. I too believe, as does Mr. Katz, that he ran further, not shorter. Too not give him credit is just wrong.

To whoever compared that to running on a track is mistaken. That is like comparing apples to dirt, aka it doesn't make sense.

If I was a jerk to Bob, sorry, but you can't say half the story when responding to my post and think it's fair, because it's not. I had no idea who David was and I've been running for a long, long time, not just a long time:)

Good night and thanks again for restoring my post because it was fairly tamed to what I've seen not get deleted on this site.

And David, thanks for having Wejo to look into it. I forgot to mention that in my post.

I realize that I"m going to get an "I don't care response" from many people but if it wasn't restored, I was done with this site. So thank you for making me stay around longer. Got home from dinner with my wife and was shocked to see it again...you da man!, but apparently I just didn't know it:)

David in Michigan

Therein lies the rub "you know" the course?

I can imagine years down the road when we're gone

that all runners will have to follow

a wide strip of tape marked with the mile/km

increments which in turn will be recorded by a

satellite image of the pack/runners. Which will monitor

runners variants (water stops, pack jockying, a beer

run, a pee run) you know. Then that data will

be extrapolated and an accurate record. I digress.

You state "It was re-measured by...", is a generous

argument in favor. I think the key word is running

course variant - some runners will cut the tangents,

meander and so forth hence - the margin of error.

Still as fan of the distance, personally I felt

that the 1981 record was swept under the rug to cover

some ineptness. Still a world best in my book despite

the pundits.

I guess this got deleted before I saw it. I actually have no clue why you reacted the way that you did.

I provided you with David Katz bio to clear up your ignorance and you jump on me for "going to bat for someone"??

Where do I disagree that Alberto got screwed?

wejo wrote:

David and Hodgie do you want a little one line bio after your screen name? Like Renato Canova has.

"2012 Olympic Course Measurer"

"2:10:59 Marathoner" are just what came off my head.

and I can link to wherever you want.

It might help the youngsters who don't know your accomplishments.

wejo, if you like you can add my name and a link to my site:

Bob Hodge

Tracks with curbs are measured 30cm from the curb, other lanes and tracks without curbs are measured 20cm in. Note that there is a big loss by stepping on the curb and that you get DQed for stepping (twice in a row...) on the line, whereas such a sanction does not generally come into play on a road course.

Some people questioning Katz need to up their reading comprehension on the topic of whether he thinks he ran a WR-type of race. There are some subtle elements about what the rules were at what points in time.

As a side question for Katz et al, it seemed to me that the standard for curves was for 1 meter in, not 30cms in. Was that ever the case and then the tighter standard was implemented? [as a postscript I was a member of the Culver CIty AC at the time and did some course measurement (e.g., one of the MtSAC courses) but never, ever on the level of Katz, et al.

You read my post and then only respond about something that I had no knowledge of but nothing else.

You took the time to read my post and respond but never mention that you agree that he got screwed. Now you say "Where do I disagree that Alberto got screwed?".

I have no problem with Mr. Katz as I now know who he is.

If someone claimed your sub 2:11 was short, which it might have been, you would assuredly respond to that, with detail too as anyone would. But you only responded to my post to "clear up your ignorance" and say nothing else. Although that is your choice it surely doesn't give you much credence.

Translation: You go to bat for Mr. Katz (which is fine) but never even mention that you believe that Alberto got cheated out of a world record (best) after reading my post.

Irrelevant as you won't see it my way anyways, I already apologized if I was a jerk to you and Wejo can verify it if it was deleted.

"You are a sad, strange, little man and..."

Now that I have a little more time I decided to go through a few boxes of documents dating back to the mid to late 70's.

Some basic facts:

Prior to USATF there was the TAC (The Athletics Congress)

Prior to TAC there was the AAU

The AAU had a Standards Committee Chaired by Ted Corbitt.

The present Road Racing Technical Council was formed on September 29, 1983 by TAC.

All measurement criteria prior to that date was under the AAU Standards Committee.

In the late70's through the early 80's Dr. Ken Young and his wife Jennifer established the National Running Data Center to be a clearing house for road racing performances. The NRDC was an indenpendent organization.

Dr. Young did a tremendous amount of good work to bring order in record keeping to this very young, wild sport of road racing. He was the first to establish a validation program which required a re-measurment of courses. I was the third member (member at large) of the NRDC.

It was Dr. Young along with Ted that established the criteria of sliding tolerances mentioned earlier in this thread. We all new that there was a great range of accuarcy for courses in this country and we wanted to give race directors time to come up to speed.

The main problem was the interpretation of where to measure. Today we measure the SPR (shortest possible route) @ 30 cm to the curb. I can tell you for a fact that there are measurers who measure tighter then that today!

But in the early years most measurers didn't have hands on training.

I just found a 9 page document from Ted Corbitt t titled 'Course Measurement"

"Measure all courses along the path the runner will be expedted to take, including all short cuts, and use the IAAF rule of measuring one meter (3 ft,3 inches) from the curb or parked vehicles or obstacles, in the running direction."

The IAAF said that a course was accurate if it was within 2.5 parts per thousand (105.48 meters for a marathon).

The people who measured the 1981 (and prior) NYC Marathon worked and volunteered for the NYRRC. Fred Lebow was the President, Allan Steinfeld- VP (and technical director of the Marathon). Ted was a member of the NYRRC Board of Directors and in constant communication. The measurers followed what Ted wrote.

I am still working on the dates of these documents but one can easily see why the NYC Marathon measured short by today's standards.

Every year in late winter the IRS arrests a celebrity for tax evasion so the rest of us get scared and file.

The removal of Alberto's mark was a way for some of the powers to be at the time to shake up the road race world.

Oh Nerd Wizard Official of the IAAF, I, too, have a measuring document from Ted - it's dated '64 and runs 29 pages. If you don't have it, I can copy. Let me know.

Per usual, you do a good job of explaining measuring & certification in plain English. I recall working through the 'tolerance' years as I validated a couple courses that fell under the sliding scale w/a Crim course BARELY making the grade & another MI race failing miserably.

What I don't agree on is regarding AlSal's 2:08:13 as the record in spite of the course shortage. Factoring in cert standards @ the time of measurement fails to explain the shortage - you're not 150 meters short because you stayed a meter from the curb and validation followed a tigher SPR. I trust you aren't going to say, 'But he ran a marathon based on the path he took,' as another poster clings to. We can't accept records based on where on a road somebody ran. We accept them based on whether the course was long enough (and timing requirements) & 100+ meters short (your validation #'s) based on a meter from the curb ain't long enough.

What sucks about the situation is the venue, the distance, the man involved and interpretation of measuring standards @ the time. Validations can have the effect of pissing off a lot of people - I know from experience (Papa Johns 10 mile).

Scott

I agree with you 100%

The bottom line is the interpretation.

Tom Knight did the re-mesurement (I measured with him).

Here are the results:

Results:

Tom Knight -

@.30m 148.3 meters short

@1.0m 103.0 meters short

Dear Bob

I didn't expect you to know who I am.

When I first met Malmo at the 2008 Olympic Trials in Eugene he didn't know me either.

So let me tell you who I am.

I am a member of a small nerdy group, actually a small army that includes officials, administrators, course measurers, race directors,announcers, road race timers, and volunteers. We are out there week after week at road races and track meets. Some of us get paid, others get

a t-shirt and maybe a bottle of water.

We are out there because we love this sport and admire it's stars - past, present and future. Our job is to support and add credibility to your performances. Most may not dedicate as much time to refining our craft as you do in your training but we do devote a great deal of time and resources.

Many of us are there many hours before you get there and leave many hourse after regardless of the weather. Many course measurers are out there in the middle of the night, measuring over and over again just to get it right. Some of us have been around for decades (me since 1974) and have dedicated a good part of our lives to improving this sport for the athletes. I have been extremely fortunate that I have been able to work my up the "nerd" ladder and have become well know in this very tiny pond. I was at the finish line when Grete first ran and at Boston this year when they ran 2:03. I have been at Millrose when Lagat ran 3:52 indoors and yes I was at some of the races you ran back in the 70's and 80's

You usually only hear about us when we screw up. But we are human, just like you. Sometimes we make mistakes and we feel terrible but we move on and hope we don't make the same mistake again.

I am proud to call myself an Track & Field Official.

Regards,

David Katz

This is getting a little confusing. I don't think it was Bob (Hodge) aka Hodgie-san that did not know who you were. It was ...Woody who, by the tone of his response, did not know or care who you were.I guess being a LI'der and being at your races for 30+ years, I find it hard to believe that someone (Woody) so dedicated to AlSal's record and issues with the course measurement would not have researched the history of the NYCM course measurement issue a bit further.Be that as it may, I also agree that Alberto's 2:08:13 should have stayed, or be reinstated as a world best from that time.Stay the course Dave!

.

Dude, you seem to be a bit defensive about who you are. Bob Hodge clearly knew who you are. The rest of us don't really care that much.

Salazar ran on a short course. This is a known fact. Move on.

I remember Frank Shorter as race commentator saying "Alberto's running the tangents in Central Park." Perhaps made the IAAF's light bulb illuminate.

Seems to me I do remember that comment about the "tangents". However, Central Park's "The Dirt Path" may have been the root of the problem. Compelling evidence for Salazar' 1981 record, although this 1982 a lot of data can be ascertained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSRiZCuDOIQ

at 3minutes :30seconds , is explicit. The dust path at 11:40 - 11:51...the measures could've screwed it up here. Central Park...I think, that's where 1981's record got contorted. Somebody needs to write an academic book about the controversy. Ultimately the NYC Marathon owes Salazar a reinstatement of his worlds best.

Would you consider it a Fast Course Mr Katz?

Dr. Smootch wrote:

Seems to me I do remember that comment about the "tangents". However, Central Park's "The Dirt Path" may have been the root of the problem. Compelling evidence for Salazar' 1981 record, although this 1982 a lot of data can be ascertained.

the measures could've screwed it up here. Central Park...I think, that's where 1981's record got contorted. Somebody needs to write an academic book about the controversy. Ultimately the NYC Marathon owes Salazar a reinstatement of his worlds best.

You are wrong about what the measurers might've done wrong and the NYRRC owes Salazar nothing.