A World Record Is Going Down In Brussels

If runners tapered for Worlds, there is no way any records will be broken.

jesse was a friend wrote:

Rec Runner x wrote:

Renato,

You have officially lost some of my credibility.

Renato may or may not have lost credibility, but whatever credibility he has ever had, it is not yours...

Quite the contrary, the credibility I have for him, the credibility he lost, is indeed mine.

What's the point of having a thread like this if it just ends up being a p!$$!ng contest? How can evolve then if the people involved in the conversation want to blather on about credibility or make unnecessary dramatic statements which only (only) cause other people to discredit said statement thus steering it away from the main idea of the thread. Think about this the next time your Ego shows up. Now back to that meet in Brussels tomorrow......

Well, at the risk of offending you, the meet in Brussels is on September 16 and so you must be referring to Zurich, which is tomorrow.

Crossed-up, thanks.

Rec runner, I'm not particularly disturbed by the fact I lost your credibility. However, I want to better explain my point.

a) Nobody of the today athletes are at the same level of the WR holders of 10-5 years ago. This doesn't mean some young talent can't become better in the next 2-3 years (Asbel Kiprop, Silas Kiplagat, Leonard Kosencha, Isaiah Kiplangat Koech, Mercy Cherono...and Yenew Alamirew), but AT THE MOMENT for a WR we need something else. So, THEY DON'T DO WR BECAUSE OF THE POOR PACING, BUT BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT THEY ARE WEAKER.

b) There are two different types of athletes : FRONT RUNNERS, and for them to have a rabbit is not important (for example Ron Clarke, Daniel Komen, in part Haile and Kenenisa), able to fight against TIME, and athletes able to follow every pace, ABLE TO FIGHT AGAINST OTHER RUNNERS. For example, Shaheen was an athlete of the second type, in spite to have WR an many top performances alone in the last 3 laps. In his best moment (2006), if he could have a race like this year with Paul Koech running so fast till last lap, the WR could be now about 7'50", because he NEVER was able running at his max level when alone. So, it's possible sometime to beat a record without pacers, but is clear that a good pacer, for athletes having a real value about the WR, can give generally great advantage.

c) About El Guerrouj, Morceli and other WR holder, I want to reverse your concept : WHICH TIME COULD EL GUERROUJ HAVE

RUN WITHOUT THE PACER OF 12 YERAS AGO ? I explain there were athletes like Malakwen able running 1200m in 2'45". If the best El Guerrouj could be an athlete of 2011, and the best pace can be 2'49" at 1200m, do you think the WR could be the current 3'26", or about 3'28" ?

At the end, I want to give my idea about the possibility of WR in middle distances for the next 2 years (and, of course, nothing this year) :

10000m Women : Vivian Cheruiyot, if she believes in a serious attempt next year. This time, in my opinion, is easier than the record of 5000m, also if can be very difficult to find athletes able to help Vivian till 7 km (she needs 14'45" / 14'50" at 5k, and about 20'40" after 7 km, after this is not a big problems for Vivian to run the last 3 km under 8'50")

5000m Women : Still some chance for Vivian, the only athletes having this potential. This is an event more in her mind, also if more difficult, under the technical point of view, of 10000m (but can present more opportunities for trying). Don't forget that 14'10", for a well trained woman, can be equivalent to 29'20" in 10000m

3000m Steeple Women : I think Zarudneva can have more chances of Milka Chemos. Till when a Kenyan is not able to improve in her technique, continuing to jump directly the water jump, and overtaking the barriers like a snake, I don't see any possibility for beating Russian athletes already strong in 3000 / 5000 flat, having very good technique when overtaking barriers and water jump.

800m Men : Rudisha can still improve, going near 1'40".

3000m Steeple Men : Very little chances, because I think that is very difficult to put together all the situations that this year allowed Brimin Kipruto in running 1/100 of seconds from the WR. Without a Paul Koech hypermotivated for personal reasons, no WR at all.

No chances in 1500 / 3000 / 5000 / 10000m men, and in 800 / 1500 / 3000m ladies.

Very different from the WR on the road, where not less than 4-5 marathon runners can better the record of Haile, and some lady can go near the record (women only) of Paula.

Fantastic insight. Thank you Renato!

Renato Canova wrote:

At the end, I want to give my idea about the possibility of WR in middle distances for the next 2 years (and, of course, nothing this year) :

No chances in 1500 / 3000 / 5000 / 10000m men......

Ok Renato, looks like you believe that Yenew, despite all his talent, will not do what is necessary in your opinion to live up to that talent, which is: "learn english, increase volume, and follow a more precise plan." If he is really capable of 12:36/37, as you earlier stated that you think he is, it is a shame that he might not have the motivation for such a performance.

Sally Pearson has the best oppo. And the balls to do it.

What's up with you guys? She delivered the best performance of the WC, hands down, and although she was fatigued in Zurich like everyone, she just blew her opponents away. More so than any other athlete.

It is a shame that, at the same time, her compadre Mitchell Watt demonstrated the worst Zurich performance by a recently-crowned World Champion in the history of T&F.

I hope that she does it and the LR community should celebrate it, and her accomplishments. Those 100mH recs from the 80s are very dubious and Pearson's approach is welcome and surprising.

coach bigfoot wrote:

I'll bet mens steeple.

I agree completely as the world record was just narrowly missed in another diamond league meet earlier in the year.

Oops Watt didn't win in Daegu, I should have stated "a recent WC medalist."

Nevertheless, my point stands. His negative performance differential is the worst of all time.

6.97 vs last week's 8.33 is over 17 percent worse. That would be the same as:

Kirani James at 51.8.

Kemboi at 9:25.

Blake at 11.4.

Pearson at 13.95.

Renato I'd love to hear about any specific workouts or drills you have your steeplechase athletes do. How would you have a Kenyan steeplechaser go about bettering his or her technique (not going over barriers "like a snake," as you put it)?

Hello Renato, RecRunner X and you all

I got the solution for te prioblems of perfect pacers and then the records will go on.

JUST… USE A CAR AS PACER ! (kidding).

Why not ?

If the officials did authorize that Paula Radcliffe took the marathon WR in London with several African men as pacers in one run that was only for female, why not use one car or one motorcycle and solve the problem ?

Well on steeple would be harder one car, however…we can find a inventive solution to solve the problem of the water jump. Might be an amphibious vehicle (kidding).

Serious. I got respect for Paula Radcliffe as a runner. But to open an illegal exception the way she could improve her own WR, I think it´s a fraud.

Sport did change tremendously. I still remember when the controversy with Primo Nebiolo that didn´t want to take the Fernando Mamede 27:13 WR as legal, just because his suspicious of that WR had been done with pacers when it didn´t.

Greetings.

I know him. . .he IS an idiot!!

Hi Antonio:

In the very early days of professional track and field (the ITA in the mid 1970s with Ben Jipcho, Jim Ryun, George Young, Brian Oldfield, and others) they had a pacing light on the rail of the track. At least a pacing light might get the athletes to stop looking at the big stadium video screen during their races!

Rec Runner x wrote:

Renato,

You have officially lost some of my credibility. To suppose that records could drop with faster pacers is ridiculous. We all know that athletes who cannot sustain world record paces will not follow the pacer. Back in the day WR holders like KB, El G and even Haile would yell at the pacers mid-race to get them to go faster. Heck, Daniel Komen even ran a WR by himself for 5,000. This is not possible toady and something is to be accountable for it. Training has evolved and I'm assuming failed evolutionary principles of training are the problem, but to suppose that athletes need faster paces to suddenly drop world records...tsk tsk.

You're completely wrong.

What world record did Komen run by himself?

Brussles 1997: Elijah Kipruto and Martin Keino (2000m in 5:02 and 7:37 at 3000m)

Rieti 1996: Kisang and John Kosgei (4:53 at 2000m!)

Budapest 1998: Laban Rotich (4:59i for 2000m)

Stockholm 1998: Robert Kibet

Hechtel 1997: There were about 10 Kenyans and Bob Kennedy in this race. I don't have the official results on hand, but I can assure you that Komen didn't lead from start to finish (prove me wrong).

And those are all of Komen's world records.

Pacing is key. If the pacing is insufficient, the world record is all but off the table. When El Guerrouj cam up short in Brussels 2001, he was leading by some distance at 2000m. When Dibaba ran 14:11, she had her sister take her through 3000m in 8:38. Where are you going to find women able to run 8:38 evenly from the front (Alminova paced the first few laps to help) that aren't more concerned about their own place in the race? Cheriuyot would have come a lot close to the WR in Stockholm if there had been better pacing.

Good pacers are needed for sure.

But agressive athletes are needed that want to push the pace to see what they can do.

I don't see many with that mindset right now.

I don't know if Webb was going to get the WR, but he had the mentality go for it to see how fast he could run.

Kiprop doesn't like to get out of his comfort zone and so he has yet to run under 3:31.

Let's see people running up on the rabbits before we complain too much about not having good pace makers.

Hah, i was close!

Tommy2Nuttz wrote:

Of those you mentioned the most likely would be the mens 800.

But even thats a long shot...as are all world records!