Why is America awful at VO2 Max development?

Speed Kills wrote:

This gets down to power, and now the Charlie Francis thing: You do (some) speed all the time. You start with accelerations as short as 10-20 meters, gradually increasing in distance, and when you can accelerate past 30m, you start max speed work. Max weights correspond with the peak acceleration phase, then (when you start max speed work) you cut the weights to maintenance....and you fly on the track. It really does work.

The thought of having distance runners do 30m block starts--or something along this line to develop power--never occurred to me before this thread. But there's no reason why we couldn't do this, say, one day a week during base phase. It's certainly less taxing than a serious hill session. Should we be doing something like this, at least early in a runner's career?

could you explain this a little more?

I like this line of thinking. Americans do not get themselves in races in which they can run fast all that much. Much less opportunity. It seems that other posters are more apt to focus on the scientific angle of the lack of solid performance at 15 and 5 but this is a very practical look at the situation.

trackhead wrote:

When I speak of VO2Max training, I'm speaking of training that is specific to that energy system, ie. races up to 12min in length.

It can be done year round and safely if implemented properly -- I feel that too many coaches either do it way too much or not often enough.

When I get home I'll repost some stuff I had on VO2 training during base phases.

Id be interested in seeing this whenever you get the chance. Also what do you recommend for vV02 max training during base phase? Simply running at vo2 max pace, or are faster paced reps, strides, and hills more effieicent?

The whole premise of this thread is flawed. All the empirical evidence available on comparing the VO2max values between African and US runners shows that our VO2max values are not the problem. We have Luke Watson tested at ~85 while the great Peter Snell tested at 72.

As JTD and Tinman have argued its economy at race pace that is killing us. Before our 1500m runners are ever worth anything at the world level they better be able to run 1:44-1:46 in the 800m. Krum can, Ryun could, Holman could, Spivey could. Who else can now? No one. AW may develop that kind of 800m speed.

The issue is development of power-endurance. That takes mileage, LT etc, hills etc. However, the element of training that is missing is the massive sets of aerobic intervals at or near race pace. Workouts like 40 x 200 at mile race-pace build efficiency at that pace. For a fit and well prepared runner that is a very managealbe workout. Also workouts like 6 x 10 x 100 hills sprints at 80-90% of maximum velocity, 60 x 100 at 800m race pace. These workout are fairly aerobic because you bite off the steep part of the lactate curve. This is classic Bob Schul training.

This time of training has to be modulated also. The classic method of periodization is out of date and not best for development. An undulating model with 4-6 week blocks alternating between schul style training and classical LT and VO2max training is better.

The plasticity of human muscle is amazing. It will get efficient at the work it does. The end-point and steady-state levels of that efficiency are directly related to the volume of work done. High volume training is absolutely essential. However, if a lot of it is slow, than the musculature is less efficient at middle distance type paces. Traditional track training is so anaerobic that high volume sessions can't be done without burnout and overtraining. People have to think outside the box. Strive to get a high volume in at or near race pace by running reps of a shorter distance--over and over and over--essentially the way Johnny Gray trained. The muscles will adapt IF the progression is slow and methodical. I have spent quite some time studying periodization in other sports and have learned a lot. Its WAY behind in American distance running. Two things 1) high volume, 2) Specificity.

As a country America lags in the raw speed category...as well as aerobic development. Our 1500/5k/10k guys do not possess the 47-48sec 400m speed required to run with the best in the world. Geb, Beleke, El G and even Tergat can all run that kind of 400m time and still have the aerobic capacity to run a 10k in 27:00 or faster. We need raw speed combined with long term aerobic development. Personally I think most American distance runners should move up one event or more e.g(1500-5k). Just my two cents.

Phoenix wrote:

The issue is development of power-endurance. That takes mileage, LT etc, hills etc. However, the element of training that is missing is the massive sets of aerobic intervals at or near race pace. Workouts like 40 x 200 at mile race-pace build efficiency at that pace. For a fit and well prepared runner that is a very managealbe workout. Also workouts like 6 x 10 x 100 hills sprints at 80-90% of maximum velocity, 60 x 100 at 800m race pace. These workout are fairly aerobic because you bite off the steep part of the lactate curve. This is classic Bob Schul training.

How many times did the likes of Holman, Scott, Spivey, Krum do any of these workouts? It's probably less than one.

What's so terrific about classic Bob Schul training?

On year round VO2 Work:

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It all depends on how you give it to them. Say I had a runner who at the end of the last training year has an LT/Mpace (that's what I've gone off) of 5:30/mi. He ran 3700 miles last year and we're going to plan on him running 4000 miles this year. We're also going to plan for 3% improvement in 1500m time. Those are our three numbers we need: mileage, LT pace and goal 1500m time.

After track season this guy got two weeks of zero running. His first week back is a 50 mile week -- no biggie. Now, the goal for this 10 week training cycle is to take that 5:30/mi MPace too 5:25/mi (for this athlete the goal is 50min continuous at pace and for him to kill himself doing it). There are a number of ways you can approach this. Some people like to start with a bare minimum volume (usually 4 miles) and have it all run at the goal pace and add on miles during the training cycle until you've built up to 8-10 miles at the goal pace. I see more value in establishing the goal volume first and then working up the pace. So we start with 9x1mile with no rest and start at AC paces (~6:30/mi) and cut the pace the next mile, and slow it on the third, and drop it again on the fourth, bring up a little on the fifth... etc., until the last mile is at that goal pace. Then over the course of this cycle you work from the last mile out to replace those slower miles with teh current goal pace. I like this because they are getting a high volume at work and, even with the easier paces, from about halfway on they never really drop out of LT.

So that's one energy system that you're doing every week. The next would be VO2 Max. There's a big stigma about doing VO2 work at non-competition parts of the season, and that you're going to peak kids early, and that can be true, depending on how you structure the workout. But, at this point (pre-xc base) we're not interested in making the athletes hurt; we just want to get the ball moving. Usually they'll be three different VO2 workouts that will cycle: a 1500m specific, a 3000m specific and a 5000m specific, all for May/June goal paces.

The 1500m workout is going to be somewhere between 16-24x200m @ goal 1500m pace with a 200m jog. Again, do the goal volume now (whatever it is relative to their experience), set the goal pace and the rest becomes the variable. Start them on 90s 200m jog and for the first 12, dop it to 75s rest for the next 5 and the last two give 60s rest. Giving the athlete the rest is something I should mention; it's something I've recently taken in and I think it's an important aspect -- when the rest is the variable and the goal pace is key, give the athlete the ability to determine their own rest. There are countless uncontrollable variables that happen when they're away that one day they'll come out and absolutely nail a workout, and the next week completely fall apart. So, back the the topic at hand, the goal is to eventually do the whole volume with 60s on all recoveries. When this workout starts, it's more or less going to be an LT workout with the slightest touch of VO2. This way, you've got the ball rolling when you want to move to 300s or 400s or 500s at 1500 pace in the spring.

The other two, 12x400m at 3000m pace and 8x800m @ 5k pace work the same way -- they touch on VO2 in the summer, xc and winter, and set you up to run the longer intervals (800/1000s at 3k pace and miles at 5k pace) in the spring. The only difference is that I'd set the rest at 1:1 and raise it in the beginning if necessary. Mind you, these VO2 workouts are not designed to kill, just touch on the systems and lay the foundation for track.

The other energy system that needs to be addressed is basic speed. Lydiard himself says that basic speed needs to be worked on once per week, fifty weeks per year. 60s, 80s, 100s, 120s at goal 400m pace with a 300m jog are essential for improving/maintaining basic speed. This is more or less at Creatine-phosphate/anaerobic workout but because the interval is so short in relation to the rest (8-15s interval with 120-150s recovery) they're more or less alactate and it becomes an endurance workout very quickly (as the creatine-phosphate system needs a minimum of 180s of complete rest to recover; since that is not given other energy systems must be used to continue the activity).

So all this stuff and the long run make up the program and I've never seen anything that says that there is anything wrong with this. These are all the systems you need, so why waste time in neglecting them? You run no harm in doing them and they only serve to benefit you. You can continue this straight through cross country (just subtract the volume of Saturday's race from the volume of the VO2 workout) and the winter and into track season. During track, some things can change depending on your focus but you never "stop" doing anything. Even when you're an 8/15 man in March/April, you can do your 1500 workout on Tuesday and your 800 workout on Thursday and still get 20min of LT in a week by doing 5min of it before and after those workouts (this is just system maintenance stuff).

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and one other thing: I've found that cycling the mileage helps a lot in avoiding injury and relating volume to intensity. Example:

If you're 20y old runner is going to average 90 mpw, arrange the weeks in terms of 75-90-105. This way the get the average week, a high week and a down week and maintain their average mileage. Then, you can associate the volumes of certain workouts with the week, like the sprint workout. On the 105 mi week, run 16x60 w/ 300m jog (higher volume, lower intensity); 12x80m for the 90mi week (medium volume/intensity) and 10x100m for the 75mi week (lower volumer, higher intensity).

And as far as arranging the VO2 work, there are two options: the way that I'd been doing it before was Week 1: 1500m, Week 2: 3000m, Week 3: 5000m, Week 1: 1500m, etc. That's good, but something that came out of Irv's January clinic was an idea from Vigil where you work on the same event for 3-4 weeks in a row before rotating to the next event under the idea that it takes the organism 3-4 weeks to get everything out of a workout (the first week you get 60%, the second 80%, the third 90% and the fourth 95%+). So, that's something to consider. I can't think of much else, except to emphasise the value of hilly running. Either running the long run on hilly terrain or having an additional 75-105min hilly run or substituting 8x3min uphill at 5k effort for the 800m workout. You don't want to overdo hills, but they are crucial for improving knee drive and lower limb and foot strength. I could not tell you the number of shin splints, knee pain and other lower limb pains that disappeared after the 3rd mountain run in 3 weeks. It's the gentle uneveness of the soft surface and the 35-50min of moderate climbing that is a huge source strength. And keep the volume of intensity with respect to their volume under 20%; with developmental athletes under 15% -- they just can't handle it without breaking down later on

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Example:

105 mile week

Sunday: 22-24mi long run at AC pace

Monday: AM: 6mi easy

PM: 2.5mi warmup, drills, 16x60m w/ 300j, 2.5mi cooldown

Tuesday: AM: 6mi easy

PM: 2.5mi warmup, drills, 8-10 miles of LT, 2.5mi cooldown

Wednesday: 12mi easy

Thursday: AM: 6mi easy

PM: 2.5mi warmup, drills, 20x200m w/ 200j, 2.5mi cooldown

Friday: 6mi easy

Saturday: 90-105 min on hills/mountains (12-14mi)

Total: 102-108mi

90 mile week

Sunday: 18-20mi long run at AC pace

Monday: AM: 6mi easy

PM: 2.5mi warmup, dills, 12x80m w/ 300j, 2.5mi cooldown

Tuesday: AM: 6mi easy

PM: 2.5mi warmup, drills, 8-10miles of LT, 2.5mi cooldown

Wednesday: 6mi easy

Thursday: 2.5mi warmup, drills, 12x400m w/ 200j, 2.5mi cooldown.

Friday: 6mi easy

Saturday: 12-14mi on hills/mountains

Total: 87 miles

75 mile week

Sunday: 15-16mi long run at AC pace

Monday: AM: 6mi easy

PM: 2mi warmup, drills, 10x100m w/ 300j, 2mi cooldown

Tuesday: AM: 6mi easy

PM: 2mi warmup, drills, 8-10mi of LT, 2mi cooldown

Wednesday: 6mi easy

Thursday: 2mi warmup, 8x800m w/ 400j, 2mi cooldown

Friday: no running

Saturday: 12 mi of hilly, mountain running.

Total: 76mi

You can arrange the workouts like this (w/ respect to volumes) or arrange it the Vigil way, doing the same VO2 workout 3-4 weeks in succession before moving to the next one. And this is certainly not too muh to handle at any time of the year, there are basically two tough workouts a week; one entirely LT and the other mostly LT.

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I should add:

and what you'll find is that it's more appropriate to determine workouts/runs in terms of time and the volume will increase proportional to the athlete's ability. For ex: if this guy is doing his 24mi run in 3hrs (7:something pace) and the next year his AC pace (65-80% of MHR) is 6:45/mi, he's covering 26-27 miles in that same time -- the effect on the runner is proportional to his/her ability. I'd start kids who've never run before on a long run of 60min and over the seasons move them up to 75-90min and then towards 2hr and 2.5hr and max it out at 3hrs.

You'll also see this in the recovery runs and warmups: 20min warmups and 45-60min recovery runs. For the 17min 5k runner, that may mean 2.25 mi warmups and 5.5 mi 45 min runs. For the 14min 5k runner, that may mean 3+mi warmups and 7+mi 45min runs. You'll also see this in the LT workout: if you set the workout volume strictly by distance (let's say 8.5mi) you'll have your top guys running say 50min for 8.5mi, but you're middle of the pack girls might be pushing 70min -- that doesn't make sense to have the other runner doing an extra 20min of work.

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Sorry to break it to you, but Krum's base is works around this principle. Before he moves into 800m specific interval training LO has him doing sessions of 50 x 100 with very little recovery. Lunn does session of 24 x 100 in 12.x with a jog the turn sprint the straight break down. Anyone who has looked over Johnny Grays training would see the same type of pattern and orignates from Igloi as did Schul's training. These kinds of sessions were prevalent in Said Aouitas training. This same kind of eary season work was part of Cruz's training. Snell did not do this kind of work, but the hill phase directly preceding the interval training phase operates through the same principle. Coe ran sessions of 40 x 1000 up hill and 30 x 200 at 1500m race pace. I could go on and on. . .

This art is in avoiding acidosis by keeping the speed distance combininations appropriate. The portugese system relies on a variant of this principle speed specific "threshold" work year round.

Although I did not elaborate earlier, this is off season and pre season work. After a high volume build up prior to the season, race specific work is done.

Remember that a middle distance runner is striving do develop a non-uniform physiology. Power and endurance are both essential. Cardiovascular development is also paramount. So, you have to do things year round that focus on these systems. For the greatest effect is has to be high volume. I also has to be sustainable--something that is repeatable ad infinitum until aging gets in the way. This is a principle of "consistency training." If it is not sustainable its generally overtraining. This is where listening to one's body is essential. Modulation comes into play here to with training blocks that alternate higher and lower intensity with an overall increase in intensity aiming towards to most important competitions of the year.

Don't shoot something down you know nothing about. I would go into the signal transduction and biochemical pathways at hand but want to avoid that for this thread.

My opinion is that the coaches of today have steered away from what worked in the past, either unknowlingly or by attempting more update training methods. As an inexperienced 800m running I was running 55-72 mile with 21.2 200m speed and improved dramatically in a few years because of my high and prolonged base. In the offseason I think the MAJORITY of our athletes AREN'T doing enough mileage and proper training to reach their potential. One year of high mileage may bring some good results but years of high mileage and (proper) training will eventually take our athletes to the next level.

Vipam

[quote]trackhead wrote:

This was an interesting point at Irv's Jan. clinic and we're seeing the results of it now.

There are so many problems with what you wrote that I don't no where to start.

1) Neither of them are American (meaning that he is completely, genetically an Eritrean. He also did not grow up here his entire life.)

2) You are comparing one transplanted American with the greatest distance runner of all time. That alone would skew the results.

3) Using the statistical difference between the all-time lists of the world and the U.S. All-time lists would be more instructive. I am betting that if you averaged the top-20 performances all-time and compared the average of the top-10 U.S. performances all-time they would be just what you would would expect.

Didn't it occur to you that Irv Ray is looking for an opportunity to show that the U.S. needs a "national program" for development of VO2max related events? I.E. the 1500-3000-5000? He wrote a letter to Masback outlining just how such a program should be done in the U.S. (surprise! It should be headed up by Irv Ray himself!!!).

I hope it was you that used the Meb vs. Haile example, because if it was Irv Ray, then that is just terrible hack-work.

The U.S. isn't bad at 1500-3k. It is just bad right now. 20 years ago we had good milers and 3k-5k runners. We even had good steeplers. This needs fixing but Irv Ray isn't the only way to do it.

1. Meb is a product of teh American coaching system.

2. Again, he was not developed outside of the US. A transplant would be someone who came to the US already developed (Boaz, Kimani, Maree, etc.)

There are countless reasons why a national program is necessary.

Irv's a great coach, his system works (it's no different than what Renato does) I'd love to see him have long term oppurtunities with talented athletes.

And I did credit Irv with this topic from his Jan. clinic -- I apologize if I didn't make it painfully clear to you.

Thank you for the answer XC Junkie.

The problem is Americans are not balancing there training because they think fast training can hurt there stamina.In every phase americans can include neural-muscular facilitation training,short fast running,hills(not really long), drills for there nervous system,light plyo's can be done but i'm not a fan.This can be done in an early base phase.v02 can be included very early as reps should.As long as there is a balance.Everybody here is making good points,We need are long-distance athletes to be faster and more explosive like there competion and we need to work there endurance as well.We are usually well behind are counterparts on a cumulative base so yes more running needs to take place but there needs to be national-system of coaches who work together and help americans reach a much higher level.We should reconize coaces that are making a difference and they should be funded to coach americans.It seems from this board alot of are best minds are doing somthing else.I use tinman as an example.Why is he not coaching?It seems like the administration of univ. are hiring more managers.Kellog that guy's brilliant too.Malmo as well seems to be able to fire people up.I was an example of doing training that worked for me but if I had worked on my neural- muscular system I proably could have made a much greater impact.

This schedule you've written up is what everyone i know does. Its what I was brought up on. What top americans avoided this type of training? As for your initial argument, it seems to, as others have noted, suggest that americans lack power and nueromuscular recruitment at high speeds. This is usually a problem of training programs that neglect strengh and turnover before full blown vo2 training.

I think that many coaches and athletes in this country are overly technical and focus too much on little things rather than getting the athletes out doing the correct work that has been proven successful. It is very similar to an aspiring musician who gets all the latest and most expensive instruments yet doesn't play a gig (a gearhead).

So here it is, the plan for 800-5000M events. I will touch on much of what has been gone over already however I will add what I have seen work. This is not meant as the end all be all, however if any coach or athlete follows these broad outlines then they will see success:

1. Do utilize long repetitions (>6:00 at 8-10K) or fast distance (> 45:00 at 15-20K) within prep phases.

2.Do put in the volume of total work. If you cannot then make sure you do a run of at least 90:00 once a week.

3.Do utilize speed & strength in the form of short (50M) fast sharp accelerations and drills stressing ankle and hip flexion within prep phases (or hills). Keep the volume of this work sane (around 400-600M for accelerations and 150-250 touch offs on bounding drills per week) with complete recovery.

4. Do not try to develop speed endurance (800-3000M paces) during prep phase since it will interfere with the maximal development of speed and aerobic endurance because of a competition of reserves.

5.Use development races as the bridge out of the prep phase to speed endurance (800-3000M paces) type workouts.

6.Introduce speed endurance around 4-6 weeks from the first important competition.

7.Speed endurance should be in the form of long intervals (800M: 400-600M, 1500M: 800-1200M, 3K/5K: 2000M) and finish with a small amount of turnover (4-6X 100M). All recovery will be complete since you cannot efficiently absorb this type of training using short recoveries.

8.After you have done all the work and reached your first important race shorten the speed endurance reps (800M: 200-400M, 1500M: 400-600M, 3K/5K: 1200M) but keep the recovery complete. The effort should feel relaxed and effortless.

9.Always maintain the long repetitions and fast distance alternating each once every week.

10.If done correctly you will be able to race your best when it counts.

i like to f*** in the ass.

Run for your own satisfaction but use the Shorter plan if you're eyeing post-collegiate competition: 2 run-your-guts-out track workouts, 1 long run (1.5-2 hours) per week, then run as you like for the rest of the week (aim for 70-90mpw) and enjoy your college experience.

Get your degree finished, then decide if you want to keep running.

you are really a fool Mr.Trackhead, Gebres mechanics and speed are way better than Mebres, that he's faster at high speeds is simply that his running efficiency is superior to Mebs and the difference goes down paralell with the speed/oxygen cost, it is much easier to run 5:00/mile efficiently than 4:20/mile.

Another thing is that Gebre ran 2:06 at his debut, what did Meb run? 2:12?Marathon times are not only a reflection of vLT but also metabolism,glycogen stores,hydration,blood sugar,....

If anything i would say that Mebre is not that far off Gebre because of a high Vo2max.

vo2max training, vo2max development....once you are running a solid amount of quality and quantity per week there is only very small room for an improvement in vo2max no matter if you start doing tons of intervals or 500mpw of jogging.

reps at 3k-5k pace work because it is a big stimulus(compared to tempos@LT) on the aerobic system(with only little help of anaerobic system) and so pushes the treshold up.