Why is America awful at VO2 Max development?

When was the last time people were doing 3:56 1600m intervals ...

In the "Pre" documentary, an observer claimed Steve started his workout with a 4 flat mile (3:58 1600m) before doing a ladder in his buildup to the '72 Olympic race. That's one, 32 years ago.

For long distance runners, for example one hill session of 10x300 m, one track session of 1600-1200-800-400-200 (Komen did that one in something like 3.52/2.51/1.51/52/24 at his best in Australia according to Bob) and then another track session of 400s, for example 4x5x400 m. The rest of the running is easy long runs, with only occational LT work ? approx. mileage 180 km pr week.

see: mariusbakken.com this is copy from some of it. I believe I read BK started that one in 3:56. So I guess we can make that three. I am sure this happens a lot outside of the usa.

I've read of some truly unbelievable...as in I don't believe them...workouts Tergat did in Tanser's book. Something like the following:

3k in 8:04

2 x 2k in 5:05

5 x 1k in 2:30

8 x 400 in 56-57 w/ 1:00 rest

All in the same workout. If I recall correctly, something 9 miles of super fast work.

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Also, El G does some pretty serious 2k reps during base...right at 4:00 pace.

Also, El G does some pretty serious 2k reps during base...right at 4:00 pace.[/quote]

His 5k PR is about a 4:05-6 pace... so a 4:00 pace would just like college guys doing 4:50 pace repeats, just ALOT faster.

trackhead wrote:

The training volume is definitely behind the sheer lack of depth in performance, but that doesn't explain why good 10000m runners (Meb and Alan) don't correlate their performances to 3 and 5k.

How many real shots have Culpepper and Meb taken at 5k?There are almost no international quality 5k's run in the US and Meb and Culpepper are never in them. The one international quality distance event they've run in is the Cardinal 10k and both have run well in them. I think Meb has attempted a couple of 5k's in Europe and Culpepper one a few years ago but I wouldn't say it's a long list of competition.

It's also one reason why times in the 1500 to 10k generally haven't been that great for US runners. Not a lot of opportunity to run races which run that fast. No one is going to do it all alone and the US runners aren't running a lot in Europe. The few 1500m runners who've attempted European racing the past few years have gotten down to the 3:35/36 range but there just aren't enough attempts. Goucher ran 13:11 a few years ago in Europe and if he stayed healthy likely would have run much faster. There is, at the very least, a circumstance issue with how the US shows up on the International Lists in recent times.

27:30-50 and 2:09-2:11, that's not more competitive than 1:45/3:35/13:15.

Kennedy,Ritz,Meb,Culpepper or Browne have no better chances to medal than Robison or Lunn.And don't forget Krummenacker who is the current World Indoor 800m Champion.

Heshko, a 3:32 man won bronce in Paris so our top milers only have to drop their prs by 2-3 secs.

27:30 and 2:09 is nothing when plenty of kenyans,ethiopians and tanzanians can run under 27min and in the marathon and alone japan has 5-10 guys who have run much faster than the us-elite.

i just looked at Heshkos progression and it's ridicolous, he pr'ed by more than 2secs in the 800m and went down from 3:37 to 3:32 in the 1500m last year after almost no progression from 2000-2002.

Where are the WADA-guys?

When I speak of VO2Max training, I'm speaking of training that is specific to that energy system, ie. races up to 12min in length.

It can be done year round and safely if implemented properly -- I feel that too many coaches either do it way too much or not often enough.

When I get home I'll repost some stuff I had on VO2 training during base phases.

Blancy wrote:

Heshko, a 3:32 man won bronce in Paris so our top milers only have to drop their prs by 2-3 secs.

but heshko has run 3:32 many times. when our guys PR, the do it once, then go back and start running 3:38/3:39 or slower, again. it seems like the pr's don't translate into the confidence for our guys. how many years has jason lunn been a 3:36 guy, who runs mostly 3:38-3:39 during the year? seems like every year.

Hey BoomerSooner,

BoomerSooner10k wrote:

That's what my coaches do. They said I was going to burn out when I was running 70 miles per week, so I asked Kevin Hanson, he said I was fine.

How did your high school track season pan out? Did your coach give you the freedom to follow your own training plan? Did your times improve?

-Brent

Easy. Everyone was told that the testing would be done after the semi's and not after finals. Look at the film. The guys looked like crap in the semi finals and looked like a million Euros in finals.

Blancy wrote:

http://www.tilastopaja.net/db/atm.asp?ID=18350

i just looked at Heshkos progression and it's ridicolous, he pr'ed by more than 2secs in the 800m and went down from 3:37 to 3:32 in the 1500m last year after almost no progression from 2000-2002.

Where are the WADA-guys?

The coaches did give me the freedom to follow my own training plan, but that was only after I got a knee injury from doing the plyos that my distance coach made us do...so I was out for five weeks, I have been back for about three weeks now, and I'm struggling to find the motivation to get back into running, since I'm not running for my high school anymore, and the coach at OU said I'm too slow for his team.

trackhead,

Regarding Meb, I do not think it is the case that "the farther Meb moves from VO2 Max, the closer (in terms of percentage) his times come to Geb's." If this were the case, we would see Meb far from Geb over 3k and 5k, and closer to Geb for both shorter and longer distances.

As it is, there is a more or less a steady trend that the longer the distance, the closer Meb is. This suggests that, if Meb has any "weakness," it would be his sprinting speed, and not his VO2.

Interesting topic to think about on a larger scale though.

Trackhead:

V02 Max is severly over-rated. Rather, the velocity at VO2 max is what we need to consider and how long it can be sustained. The maximum aerobic velocity one can run is a meld of O2 transport, fractional utilization, and efficient power.

I suggest that Meb, the example runner you choose, lacks sustainable explosive power to go to 4:10 pace for 3.1 miles (not aerobic power). Until his explosive power climbs, his times for the 5km distance will not improve. Does it matter to him? Maybe, maybe not. He is probably focusing on being strong over 10km to the marathon and thinks that endurance and strength are more important. For that very reason, Meb won't be able to ever match fast 10km runners over the last kilometer on the track. Tinman

It is possible that the percentages aren't accurate. For one, when talking about long distance runners, it is hard to get an accurate gauge on how fast they can run the 400 meters. 49 vs. 53 might not represent what Geb and Meb are actually capable of.

Regarding their 1,500 times, Geb ran 3:31 at the World indoor championships. When has Meb run a 1,500 meter race at a major championships? As far as I know, he hasn't, therefore his top 1,500 meter speed isn't known. Heck, not even milers who run the 1,500 meters on a regular basis run close to their personal best time every time they race. Not unless like Hicham El Gherouj, they have a rabbit.

Geb and Meb's 5k-10k times do compare favourably. Therefore, I conclude that their VO2 maxes also do so.

I think the difference lies in their basic leg speed. Because Meb is slower, he has to use more muscle fibers in order to reach a speed comparable to what Geb can run. Therefore, he would have to use more energy.

How do you improve explosive power? And could you explain a little more what velocity at VO2max is? Thanks. Good thread.

I think one of the main reasons is the lack of efficiency our athletes at so-called Max VO2 effort. What are the ways to increase efficiency? High mileage, long repetitions (> 4:00), high end aerobic running for at least 60:00 (tempo, steady-state or whatever), form drills that focus on forward movement and ankle flexiblity. I see most of our runners at the middle distance are generating too much of their energy in a upward motion. Some athletes when you freeze-frame the video could be around 8-10" off the ground. If you could get the athlete to generate more of this energy forward at the same effort then they will cover the distance faster.

One of the most efficient runners I have seen was Harald Norpath. He seemed to glide over the ground. His PR's were 13:20- 5K, 4:57- 2K, 3:37-1500M and competed for over 14 yrs. His coach Ernst Van Aaken expoused huge volumes of aerobic running finishing off with race pace intervals (2-3X 600M).

The key thing I am stressing is in order to race fast you have to put in the volume and be smart about using long repetitions rather than all the short stuff I see most of the college programs use. Speed is easy to develop but general endurance is not, so spend the time wisely.

XC JunkieWhat Norpoth and Van Aaken did reminds me of what Dieter Bauman does. Really slow overdistance training and a minimal amount of interval training. And they're both from Germany. Do you know if there is any connection?

Oh yeah, the federal government should do this. The fed has done such a good job with improving education let's have them get even more involved.

1) The federal gov should have NO role in primary or secondary education (and a very limited role in college!).

2) It seems the more the fed gets involved in education, the worse things get.

3) Stop worrying about everyone else. Get your kid out exercising.

Your "eating right" section shows the problem in developing curriculum. Who gets to decide? The same people who pick history texts?