Why is America awful at VO2 Max development?

I think the 4 second difference in 400 bests makes a big difference, too.

Also realize that, by using one example to strate this trend you are trying to , you are overgeneralizing. On top of that, this particular example, a 3-10k runner (Geb) versus a 5-20k runner (Meb) is not really the basis for a good comparison. Use people whose strengths and weaknesses are the same...otherwise you're going to get inherently slanted statistics. Are you just using the statitics to support your point or are your relying on the data with all the variables in play?

First, I think the reason you see Meb as 5-20k and Geb as 3-10 (or 15k) is because of where Meb's times land him internationally.

Second, yes the difference is 400m speed is the greatest determining factor, however, if it were purely a case of speed, you would still see Meb sub3:40, sub7:40 and 13:05ish as he has the endurance for a 53s quarter miler to run those times (as other runners have).

Third, correct a single person-to-person comparison doesn't make for a strong arguement so let's look at this on a national level: USA (above 400m) has the greatest number of A standards in the 10k and marathon (don't have figures I can site), while there are very few (one or two) right now in the 800/1500/3000SC/5000 with A standards. The same is not true for the Africans.

Possibly one's adult VO2 potential has a lot to do with their work put in during their prepubescent years?

I think that's a big possibility. I definitely think that the aerobic benefits you can get from running a lot as a youngster are much greater than doing a similar workload when you're a fully grown adult. But where exactly you define the limits (ie how fast can somone who started running at 14 get) is something I don't know.

Non-Africans have run 1:41 (Coe ran a lot of miles in his youth), 3:28-29, 7:30, 12:58 (excluding Deiter), 27:08 and 2:06 (even if you assume Da Costa was dirty, Takaoka and Pinto have both run 2:06). Now, can runners who just start running at 14 ever run 7:25, 12:44, 26:30 or 2:05? I don't know. But I think that if gas got up to $10/gal in the US, and parents weren't overprotective of their kids and let them use their feet to get around, and if there was some serious financial rewards involved, then I think you might see those times coming from the US and other countries.

1337hax0r wrote:

I think the 4 second difference in 400 bests makes a big difference, too.

I'll bet Meb could run faster than 53 in an all-out 400m... He probably just never raced one when fit.

This is why I came up with this a few months ago...

Resolved, that:

The United States Federal Government should institute a public schools' physical education program--a real physical education program (one that teaches students to be better physically fit, not one that teaches students to play sports)--in an effort to reduce obesity and enhance the true athletic ability of American students.

Such a physical education program will focus on the following focus points:

1. Aerobic Conditioning

2. Flexibility

3. Strength

4. Proper Eating

Beginning with first grade, students should begin learning basic principles of athletic conditioning, beginning with the importance of aerobic conditioning and flexibility. Students should begin a program that teaches aerobic conditioning in some form (particularly running, beginning with .5 miles a day in the first grade, and increasing by .5 miles each year to build a solid aerobic base). Flexibility will be integrated into the program with stretching each day. As the years move on, beginning in the 6th or 7th grade, students will begin to learn strength building techniques, using body weight as the resistance (pushups, pullups, situps, lunges, squats, etc) with proper technique. The flexibility and aerobic conditioning portions of the program will be continued. Students will also be taught proper eating skills and the focus will not be on the "food pyramid" it will be focused on what humans need to eat to survive and how to maintain a proper balance in fats, carbohydrates, and protein, and how to keep variety in their meals to incrase the intake of necessary vitamins and minerals and fiber.

When the students reach the high school level, they will be required to participate on an athletic team of some sort, that keeps the athlete active (no golf or bowling, for example) and follows a more structured training program than the pre-high school physical education; or the students will be required to take a physical education class that focuses on an aerobic activity and flexibility (aerobics for example).

This should become the foundation to: a lower obesity level among Americans, improved performance in athletic events of all kinds, and a life of healthy activities and living.

Could be a flaw in the entire comparison. There can be a big difference in what is considered VO2max-dominating distances and actual VO2max values. I tested 3 women who had VO2maxes of 73, 68 and 60 and all ran between 9:06 and 9:08 in the 3000. So here you have 3 runners, who are in the same "VO2max" event and with similar times, which would suggest they have equal or near equal VO2max, when in fact they vary tremendously. It's not so simple as it would appear to decide where any particular individual or group of individuals is weak or strong

Of course, however, regardless of what the quanifiable value of their individual VO2Max is, the events up to 12min are still VO2-focused events, and that's the energy sytem of greatest importance.

Geb could be at 92 and Meb could be at 78 -- I still don't think Meb would be running as fast as his abilities would allow.

Read the thread about the McDonald's Dollar Menu challenge for some insight into this problem.

trackhead:

interesting comparison here, why did you choose meb specifically, is it because he is the best all round distance runner the u.s. has currently?

the reason i ask is that meb wasn't a completely home grown u.s. talent. while he did run u.s. h.s, he is also an immigrant. i don't know much about his background, but it would seem he lead a more similar childhood to geb than did other american runners.

what does this say about early stage vo2 development? lifetime miles?

good thread.

I agree with you that we suck at the 1500 and are far more competitive at the 400 and the 10k. However, I don't believe that it is tied to a lack of VO2 max development. Our middle distance guys are just plain weak. They need to train at 100-120 miles a week if they want to compete on a world level. This will never happen when you can win National meets running 3:38-3:40. When watching a track meet on TV and I watch a 400 meter split of over 58 I change the channel. I have far more respect for a guy that goes through 1200 in 2:53 and gets walked down by the field than I do for a guy that wins in 3:40. The 3:40 guy has zero chance of ever being competitive on a world level.

Probably because this is a comparison with America's top 10000m runner and the world's top 10000m runner. I realize he's from Eritrea but he's a product of American coaching. And I'm certainly not saying he's poorly coached -- I'm a huge Bob Larsen fan -- but I think that one of the principals that Irv preaches and the Africans do and Americans don't is year round, intelligent VO2Max development. I think most coaches either do too much of it all the time and fry their athletes or they do virtually none apart from x number of weeks in this part of the year for fear of burning out their runners. There is a middle ground.

good point mjr...

also for reference, check out the new movie 'super size me'

trackhead wrote:

or they do virtually none apart from x number of weeks in this part of the year for fear of burning out their runners. There is a middle ground.

That's what my coaches do. They said I was going to burn out when I was running 70 miles per week, so I asked Kevin Hanson, he said I was fine.

The training volume is definitely behind the sheer lack of depth in performance, but that doesn't explain why good 10000m runners (Meb and Alan) don't correlate their performances to 3 and 5k.

I believe it comes down to our coaches. We have no one qualified to coach a sub 13:00 5000m runner. BK is the only one that can give some real insight into how he trained. He did some very hard workouts. When was the last time people were doing 3:56 1600m intervals. His 1600,1200,800,400 workout is unbelievable and he got dusted DURING it.

In america intensity wins out in training. The proper mix of long duration running an intensity must be optimized. It seems like we have people that are extremly one sided in this training perspective.

Also the training groups in these other countries are much better than here. We do not have 10 guys in a group doing 5 x 2000m in 5:05 togehter anywhere. In east africa there is. They have pushed there limits in training and racing is just an extension.

I think BK said don't expect to do anything in a race you can't do in practice. Well I bet do you think Geb was surprized he ran 12:58 at the end of a 10K. No he knew he could run that.

As for Alan .. he is a marathoner the 3000 is very different.

Honestly no one in this country can give a good answer to this question because we (coachs) are all trying to figure it out and we haven't.

What Africans do year round VO2 max training? Most of the Africans I know follow high end aerobic runs throughout the base period. There seems to be very little VO2max work until late April for those competing June-August. That means that November to March there is little to none.

trackhead - what do you consider vo2max training?

thanks,

ignorant