Oscar Pistorius gets his A

hey now... wrote:

lease wrote:

Equal? No, of course not.

Appropriate? Yes.

Ok, that's fine. But what you're saying here is that people with disabilities either do not merit or cannot be given equal opportunities. I would guess that you're going to go with the second option, that it is impossible to give people with disabilities equal opportunities... but I will again note that, rather than being factual, this is another rhetorical way for the winners justify dominance.

Okay, now I'm pretty sure (I suspected before) that you're trolling. Well done--you got me.

On the off chance that you're NOT trolling: wheelchair racers don't get the same opportunities as the able-bodied. Why? Because they're faster, and it wouldn't be fair.

In all this discussion I've yet to see anyone advocating that wheelchair folks be given "equal opportunities" and put on the track at the same time as the able-bodied. Yes, they (and their mode of locomation) ARE inherently different.

So are Pistorius and his mode. In essence, what people seem to be arguing is that, because OP is "bipedal," and his times to date have been in the ballpark of what able-bodied people do, that therefore OP is somehow doing what the other bipedal runners are doing. He's not: the IAAF research (even though the CAS apparently discounted it) demonstrated that.

What it boils down to is this: if OP were running 400s in 30sec, no one would be pushing to have him in able-bodied races ("opportunity" and "equality" be damned); if he were running them in 2.5-3 minutes (the fastest pace that I, with my disabilities, can manage), no one would be pushing to have him included; and if he were clocking times exactly similar to what he's doing now, but in a wheelchair or handcycle (those athletes tend to mirror his pace pattern, btw), people would think it absurd.

So this whole argument is: he kinda looks like runners; he runs times that kinda look like runners'; therefore he should be included, but other disabled folks should not. I guess people are willing to push for "look/run kinda like us, and you can get in able-bodied races; look/move differently and you're SOL." At least my position is consistent.

exactly... if this guy ever gets in real condition he will run sub 40

What Else wrote:

Not only that, but the guy doesn't even look that fit. He doesn't look like the prototypical 400 runner (tall, slim, cut). He has no definition in his physique. He doesn't look like he's ever dieted or peaked in a weight training cycle because he's never had to.

I'm sure he works very hard, but not anywhere close to what the world's top 400 runners have to do to run consistent low-45 to 44.xx's with the occasional 43.xx over the course of a season. The guy has an advantage, whether he realizes it or not.

Oscar is the Ku Klux Klan

Ok, you're right, rules of the playground don't apply to the real world. Oscar should have his own races because he has too much of an advantage over able bodied runners and other amputees, but wheelchair athletes have too much of an advantage over him - at least at distances longer than 400m. (Which is apparently the distance that is closest to being an interesting race between able bodied and wheelchair racers. The top T54 time last year was 45.64, but that was over a second faster than the next time and there were only 3 under 47.)

Just because our current model of competition is how it is right now does not mean that it is the right, just, best, most entertaining, and most competitive model.

And I'm not even sure whether I'm trolling or not anymore, but I do need to quit paying attention to this forum.

exactly---the confluence of kinda looking the same kinda running world class times blinds us to the advantage he has

Weldon,the reaction of his peers after the race shows that he has their respect. So, get off of the soapbox and write something positive for a change!

wejo wrote:

I'm assuming the result is legit but the same thought did cross my mind.

My question is has an able bodied athlete had such a similar breakthrough in the middle of a season?

Oscar had never run under 45.61. 2 days ago he ran 46.65. Boom now he's running 45.07.

The IAAF botched the inquiry against Oscar P but the science I have read points to him having an unfair advantage so I don't think he should be running Worlds.

At this rate of improvement, he'll win Worlds easily.

hey now... wrote:

Trying Hard To Win wrote:

That does suck a lot. The main difference I can see, though, is that to make a ramp or something takes more room and/or money vs just allowing blacks or whites into the same door. Basically segregation was based on something that was fictional and there aren't really any big differences between races, but unfortunately there is a physical difference between you and most people.

Ha ha, awesome. Good job justifying your dominance: " 'Seperate is inherently unequal' doesn't apply here because, you see... You really are different."

Exactly. Every single person is different. But you cant just separate it based on taking each person's ethinicity, height, weight, experience, etc. A category has to be established for who/what can race who/what. Sports are categorized so that it is relatively equal (based on gender and age). Up to people to decide how broad they want the category to be.

basically youre saying that there should be no high school athletics or Juniors or anything. Might as well race a f/cking cheetah then.

I wonder how much the springs he runs on helps performance. If Jeremy Wariner used them would he be faster?

If a World Championships or Olympic finalist doesn't want another runner to have a possible "spring" advantage, this is understandible.

If a runner had to take EPO in order to keep his red blood count high, would this be fair to the runners he competes against? Perhaps you could control how much EPO he uses, but can you control how much springs help?

I don't know if there is a way to determine if running on springs provides an unfair advantage.

johnny utah wrote:

Weldon,

the reaction of his peers after the race shows that he has their respect. So, get off of the soapbox and write something positive for a change!

I never said I don't respect him. I said he shouldn't be racing at the World Championships and I'm sure some top 400m runners believe the same as I do.

Private meet organizers can do whatever they want.

He has a huge advantage in my opinion:

How much time would you estimate he loses? Half a second? One second? He's said in our local media that he loses 1 second.

Now look at his 100m time. His PB is 10.91. So if he is losing 1 second, then he's implying that he runs 10.91s. Faster than Michael Johnson was, and he was a much faster 200m and 400m runner. So how much time do we really believe he loses at the start? Maybe 0.5 seconds. Sure, it's been acknowledged, everyone has recognized this.

But in a 400m race, he's worth 44.5s now (assuming you go with the 0.5s loss). Give it a few years, some new equipment, more strength, more training, he runs 43s. Then what? Because you see, the argument that he should run because he has a disadvantage looks nonsensical when a guy starts to win races despite that disadvantages. This is not a scale of 'pro' vs 'con', advantage v disadvantage. If there is an advantage, not available to others, then it's clear.

truthfully, you don't need to be a scientist to tell he has an advantage. you just need a pair of track and field-trained eyes. experienced runners and coaches can size-up a runner by watching him run.

from what i see, oscar--with complete legs--would run in the low 50's at best, and maybe as slow as 56 seconds.

just my opinion, derived from years and years of coaching and sizing up runners.

If using these type of legs is such an advantage, then why aren't other double amputees running just as fast as him or even faster? I mean there are plenty of runners in the paralympics, if this is really a 6-10 second advantage then there should be a ton of these guys around running mid 45-46seconds. In high school track it's not that special to be a 50 low guy, so take a 50 low guy, give him a 6-10 second advantage then it should not be very hard to get a paralympic runner to run 45. It should be VERY easy. Why is he the only one doing this?

There are only 8 lanes so in a championship someone won't get a chance if OP takes a lane. I feel for that someone.

Tom

Has he ran an 800? wrote:

If using these type of legs is such an advantage, then why aren't other double amputees running just as fast as him or even faster? I mean there are plenty of runners in the paralympics, if this is really a 6-10 second advantage then there should be a ton of these guys around running mid 45-46seconds. In high school track it's not that special to be a 50 low guy, so take a 50 low guy, give him a 6-10 second advantage then it should not be very hard to get a paralympic runner to run 45. It should be VERY easy. Why is he the only one doing this?

Umm, because almost all of the other competitors are actually single amputees, who are limited by their natural limbs.

I like the suggestion that someone made above: let Pistorius compete in able-bodied races, but only "as is"--anybody remember Pete Strudwick?

wejo wrote:

I never said I don't respect him. I said he shouldn't be racing at the World Championships and I'm sure some top 400m runners believe the same as I do.

Private meet organizers can do whatever they want.

He has a huge advantage in my opinion:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/david_epstein/11/19/oscar.pistorius/index.html

I look at Mr. Pistorius' "blades" as simply his shoes, not his legs. He's just wearing some very interesting shoes.

However, there is a more important human rights issue to this controversy.

Does the lack of legs eliminate a human being from running in the top level meets? I say that it shouldn't.

The compromise is that he can participate in invitationals but not championships.

You CAN'T be serious!! Wow I've lost so much respect for your intelligence. C'mon man! Shoes should have a height limit- how's 4 inches sound? Like another poster said: Apparently the only disabled athletes that are allowed to compete with non-disabled athletes are ones that are still bipedal, and are already hitting performances that are similar or slightly slower than the non-disabled athletes. "Looks similar, must be the same"- so stupid.All this being said, what Oscar does is amazing and I respect him and his drive very much. And he should be allowed in certain invitationals.

MAYEROFF wrote:

I look at Mr. Pistorius' "blades" as simply his shoes, not his legs. He's just wearing some very interesting shoes.

However, there is a more important human rights issue to this controversy.

Does the lack of legs eliminate a human being from running in the top level meets? I say that it shouldn't.

MAYEROFF wrote:

Does the lack of legs eliminate a human being from running in the top level meets? I say that it shouldn't.

Does a lack of raw talent, found only in the top 1 percentile of the population, where to get on this level, one must use some sort of outside assistance if they weren't born with the ability to be competitive, eliminate a human being from running in the top level meets? You say that it shouldn't?

The spring shoes are outlawed for able body runners.