For Runners, Soft Ground Can Be Hard on the Body (Gina Kolata in the Times)

If "the harder the surface, the softer the landing" is true, please explain why my recovery from a road race is much longer than a similar trail race? This diffeence is not due to a lack of road training for the road events. Maybe I personally have horrible form, yet somehow have been able to avoid major injury for 13 years, but the longer recovery from hard surfaces is common to everyone I know who runs road and trail races. This includes those who run most of their miles on the road.

I've been able to run quality workouts 2-3 days after a trail marathon, 50k, or even a 50 mile trail race. After a road 50k, it is 7-10 days before my legs feel decent enough to do a workout. Several of these comparisons involve the same minimalist shoe for both surfaces.

I have a good amount of experience with minimalist shoes, and the while "less between your foot and the ground, the softer the landing" may be true (or maybe we should say the hypothesis is supported by studies in peer reviewed journals), it doesn't seem to hold practical value in longer events. I often see ultra runners in minimalist shoes who fade badly towards the end of races due to muscle fatigue and/or pain, especially races which involve hard downhill running, but I've also witnessed this in road 50k's in runners who try to go with a very lightweight racing flat. Is this effect due to softer landings? Minimalist shoes are great, but you need to fit the shoe to the application, and lighter and less is not always better.

Thanks sir Lance alot for the thoughful reply. I did read and understand the paper.

a couple important points. Feet need firm surface on landing to trigger stability. this is why joint forces may increase on soft surfaces and it shoes.

http://www.pmrjournal.org/article/S1934-1482

(09)01367-7/abstract

now for the ultimate in performance and injury reduction...we have no clue but maybe the Harvard Track model can be replicated in a shoe by giving the compliance at midstance...not on landing.

My post mostly about how the entire kinetic chain responds when landing on hard surface in less/no shoe vs landing on a soft surface. Here is a nice piece by Robbins on the topic.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000399939790157X

We all can find anecdotes and studies supporting what we believe to be true....my take is for everyone to acquire some knowledge of how their chasis works and be their own intuitive coach.

Respectfully,

Mark

Thanks sir Lance alot for the thoughful reply. I did read and understand the paper.

a couple important points. Feet need firm surface on landing to trigger stability. this is why joint forces may increase on soft surfaces and it shoes.

http://www.pmrjournal.org/article/S1934-1482

(09)01367-7/abstract

now for the ultimate in performance and injury reduction...we have no clue but maybe the Harvard Track model can be replicated in a shoe by giving the compliance at midstance...not on landing.

My post mostly about how the entire kinetic chain responds when landing on hard surface in less/no shoe vs landing on a soft surface. Here is a nice piece by Robbins on the topic.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000399939790157X

We all can find anecdotes and studies supporting what we believe to be true....my take is for everyone to acquire some knowledge of how their chasis works and be their own intuitive coach.

Respectfully,

Mark

I think a major problem with this article and with our approach to knowledge is the idea that knowledge is worthless unless supported by a randomized controlled trial. For some applications, the randomized controlled trial offers the best chance of learning something, but for many others, it is not.

I think that a good measure of whether the randomized controlled trial should be pursued is the plausibility of replication in a future study. For something like running injuries, where there are so many sources of variation, it is likely that two similar studies could produce different results, even for large sample sizes.

For this issue, the collective wisdom of experienced people is probably our best bet at uncovering the truth. And that experience says that while there is quite a bit of individual variation, people tend to respond better to softer surfaces.

That being said, the collective wisdom has been proven wrong in many examples, so balanced approaches to knowledge production are desirable. I just want to make the point that the randomized controlled trial is not the only means of learning about the world.

Ben,

great question...same is true with me. on the trail i tend to have a shorter stride and do not run with reckless abandon. on the road i wear shoes to race in...they are faster. i probably hit the ground harder esp on downhills than if running barefoot.

that being said the focus is on form. wore Newton Distance in 2009,10,11 Boston for 2:37,2:34,2:37...age 44 now.

was able to run a nice easy hour the day after each of these races...no soreness.

So this is a complex equation with lots of variables.

Have fun and learn from every experience and that is what is important.

Mark

Yeah runners soft surfaces hurt your legs.....stay off the trails.

For what it is worth, and I haven't read this thread...

I spoke to a podiatrist who worked with thousands of runners and even a European national team. His view was that uneven footing can cause tendonitis in the knee, so he advised finding smooth ground rather than focusing on hard or soft.

What about sand? It's really soft so is it a good surface to run on?

From personal experience, I've run on the sandy beaches surrounding Mauna Loa and developed some nasty cuts and abrasions.

minor observation: the "title" of the web page includes the words "Just as", while the title text shown at the top of the article omits those words.

So I wonder if Ms. Kolata's originally intended title included those words, and some editor snipped them?

The included words match up more with the content of the article.

Tommy2Nuttz wrote:

The best runners in the world run on dirt roads and trails...thats good enough for me.

Me too, of course they still get injured but part of the basis of their success is running on trails

Overuse injuries in running are made worse by constant repetition. This is lessened if the surface is not

I have seen inumerable runners retired ealy due to injuries. Most in the uk are forced to run on the roads through the uk winter. It can't have done them much good! Not a scientific study but neither are the tin pot ones run for Co's with a vested interest in road shoes listed here. If you are off road the cushioning on shoes is less important and the vast majority of trainer buyers are for walking around in or plodding the pavements...slowly

I trained with Ethiopians decades ago. They were training for road races in the uk. It was a revelation to me how they avoided running on the roads or even track in training

They have a saying in fishing. Never sit behind a poor angler, you'll learn nowt. So I prefer to take the lead of elite athletes. They are the experts and they are based in East Africa. 'roads are death to young legs' (para) By the way they were doing dynamic warm ups 20 years ago while us lot were still stretching so they know more than you think and a lot more than some of the 'qualified' experts on here.

I'll be taking my group for interval training on a nice park tomorrow. Good luck if you want to keep it on the crete!

Running on uneven surfaces over time taxes and thereby increases strength of various stabilizing muscles in the lower extremities and core. This issue is never addressed, and may infouence results of "snapshot" studies.

A runner spending a lifetime on roads or the track may have also spent a lifetime ignoring strengthenng these various tendons and muscles. Of course a change in surface will cause, at the very least, strain to such soft tissue.

Although not an exact analogy, take farmboy strength, free weight strength, and (I know, outdated, but whatever this type of fixed-plane apparatus is called today) Universal gym strength. The farmboy / free weight guys are incurring different neuromuscular and proprioceptive stimuli over time, and (insert peer-reviewed studies, if applicable) acquire more complete strength capabilities.

So just how are you going to control for just a few things:

-Previous Injuries

-Training Pace

-RPE

-Foot Strike

-Trerrian (all flat on hills)

- What time of day

- Sickness

- Effect of different training shoe.

Your sample size is too small

What bias do you have for wear patterns to match it too.

I ran on a soft grass loop for about 5 months as I was having calf issues. Well...beleive it or not I developed a bad case of Plantar Fasciitis from the soft grass. My foot doc explained that when your foot lands on a soft surface your foot can tweak back & forth as it stabilizes itself. This motion could wreak havoc on your plantar fascica. Another case of what is good for the goose is bad for the gander

Soft is a relative term. If I run in the State Park by me, on very firm dirt trails, and finish by running on the blacktop roads - there is an incredible difference you feel, yet you do not notice the "softness" when going from blacktop to the grass/dirt trails.

Also, I remember hearing of schools that had an increase in lower leg injuries when their track/cc athletes began working out on their schools indoor field turf facilities when these started becoming more common. Hard mondo indoor track vs field turf? Each surface is probably good for certain runners, and not so good for others.

j;lka;js wrote:

Yeah runners soft surfaces hurt your legs.....stay off the trails.

Yes do that. More room for me!!!!

It is becoming painfully obvious that the answer is variety.

"...ran on grass continually, got this injury..."

"...ran on pavement, and always had this pain..."

"...going pure minimal fixed my knees but broke a metatrsal."

For anyone doing 30-40 mpw or more changing up the things you do/use is likely to protect you. Some speed work in flats. Easy road miles in normal trainers. Occasional runs on trails and grass. Some warm up/cool down work barefoot. Eat a good varied diet from all the food groups. Do some core strength training to keep your body balanced. Occasionally walk, bike or swim just to give your body a break.

For all you crybabies, I give you exhibit A, Sebastian Coe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKgUuMzMWk4#t=01m40s

Anyone who's read his Dad's books knows this is how he did most of his miles and hill sprints.

Like I have been saying all along: Keep in on the creet.

I'm almost totally cynical anymore but sure, I know shoe companies would prefer people keep running and buying shoes rather than being injured and not buying shoes.

But I grew up in the days when Tiger used to run an ad claiming that their shoes would last for 3,000 miles. This was in the days when runners were a little more cash thin than most are today so durability was a concept that sold. Having gotten used to upwards of 2,000 miles on a pair of shoes I have a hard time taking this business of replacing them every few hundred miles as anything other than a marketing gimmick and personally, I think the older models were as good as not better than today's.

I'd tell your Kayano runner the same thing I'd tell someone who's been running 90 miles a week in the asme pair of Piranhas for six months with no injury problems. Don't mess with what's working.