Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene

There is a very easy way to solve this. It's a simple ratio. How many world class athletes have Renato Canova coached? How many has ventolin^3 coached? Exactly.

Renato Canova wrote:

Life, such as training, is affected by REAL problems. Your calculator, and probably yourself, are living in a fantastic world that too many times nothing has to do with the reality.

Quote of the f***ing century!!!

No one is arguing that....but it's not the crux of this conversation. Just like not getting paid has nothing to do with the original statement Canova made. There is no logic or reasoning on this entire board, with the exception of Malmo and Flagpole....who in my opinion are always very consistent and reliable with their opinions.

Hodgie-san wrote:

Anyway, no reason you can't do some of both, best of both worlds.

Hodgiesan, I can't believe you're saying this. Ours is a sport where you are one injury away from retirement. There's absolutely no reason for him to alter his training for road races, and distract him from marathon training.

hurdlethief wrote:

So let me get this straight.....

Canova says, (and may I paraphrase): "Komon is too slow for the track."

Ventolin says, (and may I paraphrase again): "That's a ridiculous statement based on one sub-par performance."

Canova says, (and may I please paraphrase once more): "It's all about money."

The general consensus of everyone following the thread is (paraphrase): "Canova just told you what's up!"

What the hell? I take no sides here, but it appears you're all F#$*ING nuts.

Money is good hurdlethief but for some there are other motivations for being an athlete.

That's what's up.

Hodgie-san,

I'm not taking sides, and I believe every statement that was paraphrased....but they are in NO WAY related. If Komon is NEVER AGAIN to run a track event because it's not lucrative, why didn't Canova just say that? He said it's because he's too slow. Ventolin calls him out on it and he defends himself by going into the this lengthy diatribe about money, resources, lack of financial backing, etc. It's disconnected. Everyone is full of shit, including some of the "best" on here.....

Furthermore,

What is "rich" by Kenyan standards? I have no idea, but I'd venture to say that a VERY LARGE percentage of elite/sub-elite Kenyan runners would be considered "rich" if they were forced to fully disclose their financial situation. It's all relative. Komen won 45,000 USD? I bet he is INSTANTLY considered a "rich" man in Kenya.

malmo wrote:

Hodgiesan, I can't believe you're saying this. Ours is a sport where you are one injury away from retirement. There's absolutely no reason for him to alter his training for road races, and distract him from marathon training.

EDIT

There's absolutely no reason for him to alter his training for TRACK races, and distract him from marathon training

OUCH, that's gonna smart! But true. I don't trust that calculator.

haha YO wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Life, such as training, is affected by REAL problems. Your calculator, and probably yourself, are living in a fantastic world that too many times nothing has to do with the reality.

Quote of the f***ing century!!!

I think for you is difficult to understand what is the life in Kenya. I give you the example of Moses Mosop.

He was on the track for several years, already representing Kenya in Olympic Games 2004 in 10000m. He won bronze medal in Helsinki 2005 (WCh), and silver medal in WCCh (Cross) 2007. He had PB of 12'54" (better than the PB of Komon)and 26'49" (better than the PB of Komon), and, having Bekele in front, NEVER COULD WIN ANY TOP CHAMPIONSHIP.

Last year he started running on the road : immediately 59'20" in HM.

This year started full Marathon : immediately 2:03'06" (wind more or less, it was an amazing perfromance).

After this, his motivation grew up, and you saw what was able to do last Friday, without a very specific preparation.

So, forget about money (that in any case is much more on the marathon) : I ask you : If you see some possibility to win Olympic in Marathon and to better the WR in marathon, do you want to remain on the track WITHOUT possibility of winning, or you move to Marathon ?

The answer is very easy, try to think only 3 seconds and you have the solution.

3 whole seconds??? thats quite generous, takes me about .12 sec to make my decision!

malmo wrote:

Hodgie-san wrote:

Anyway, no reason you can't do some of both, best of both worlds.

Hodgiesan, I can't believe you're saying this. Ours is a sport where you are one injury away from retirement. There's absolutely no reason for him to alter his training for road races, and distract him from marathon training.

Excuse me, I did not realize that it is so wack to suggest that an athlete can compete successfully on the track and also compete on the roads.

I will defer to the experts.

hurdlethief wrote:

If Komon is NEVER AGAIN to run a track event because it's not lucrative, why didn't Canova just say that? He said it's because he's too slow.

track isn't lucrative, but there is money to be made if you're the BEST (i.e., you can run fast, finish fast, and CONSISTENTLY win races and medal at major championships)... right now, that list is pretty short (bekele, lagat, ???)... the guys at the very top make most of their money outside of diamond league prize purses... komon will never be "that guy", so it's off to the roads to make a living...

Thanks Mr. Canova for taking some time to share your expertise on here. We do take your wisdom very seriously because we have seen the kind of results you produce in your athletes. However some of us feel that some athletes move to the longer distances(marathon) before they reach their full potential in the shorter distances. Huge Monetary inducements is understood but I think athletes should give several tries on the track before moving on. The late Samuel Wanjiru ran 26:41 for 10000m on his only race at that distance at the age of 18. One wonders how fast he could have run if he had stayed at that distance say for 3 years before moving on. Another example is Komon whom you've mentioned. In his 10000m debut, he ran 26:57 at the age of 19. It definitely looks like he has a potential for 26:20 or faster especially after his 26:44 on the roads. That is just my opinion. Perhaps the organizers need to put more money on the track, say 1 million dollars to break 10000m WR. That would surely keep alot of athletes on the track.

Presumably that's not a good investment from the perspective of the organizers. In the US, at least, such a race might generate a few newspaper articles and, if the WR goes, a mention in Sports Illustrated. That money put into a marathon would likely generate tons of feel-good stories about people overcoming ADD or whatever to run a sub 5 marathon, all of which prominently mention the sponsor's name. And there are the tourism dollars; all those marathon participants spend money, as opposed to the cheap-ass hardcore T&F fans who sleep on someone's couch and bring their own bologna sandwiches into the meet.

The modern preparation for the marathon doesn't affect the performances on track, if the coach understands HOW and WHEN to put specific training for long speed endurance.

Paula Radcliffe bettered her PB in 3000m of 6" AFTER running her first London Marathon. Last year, Wilson Kiprop ran Prague Marathon on 9th of May, and AFTER bettered the WR of 10000m in altitude of 18", won African Champs in 10000m beating Kipsiro in the last lap (arguable one of the best finisseur in the circuit), and became World Champion in HM, when was 23 years old.

So, the problem is different. An athlete, or has the attitude for becoming a top marathon runner, or doesn't have. In the first case, it's useless and damageous to stay long time on shorter distances, waiting that the body is no more able to have the full efficiency before moving to marathon. In the second case, NEVER the athlete can become a top marathon runner, since the main quality for running a fast marathon is not to be old, simply....

Of course, if we speak about a preparation based on the EXTENSION OF THE INTENSITY, we need to start from the intensity, and this is possible only when the athletes are still in their growing period. Instead, if you look at the "classic" preparation for marathon runners old style, based on a lot of mileage at low and medium speed, you can see athletes losing their speed in short time.

It's obvious that, if we want to reach our top in a marathon, we can't do this when no more able to run fast in shortest distances.

In Boston, the second half was at a pace of 2'52"8. Do you think possible to do this, if at the moment the athletes are not able running 27' in 10000m ?

All the athletes having a long career in 5000 / 10000m (including Gebre and Paul Tergat) were not able to reach the level can reach starting the preparation for marathon when still able producing their top results on track. Gebre maintained his speed a little more than Tergat (he ran 26'50" without specific preparation, only 28" slower than his PB, also many years later), but Paul lost between 50" and 1', so the Tergat marathon runner was not the real Tergat, but his elder brother.

The question is : Which results in Marathon Gebre and Tergat should had reach, if moving to the distance 5-6 years before ? And this type of preparation, how much could had affected their performances on track ?

In my idea of training, athletes as Moses Mosop, Wilson Kiprop, Sammy Kitwara, Florence Kiplagat, Mary Keitany and some other still young, moving to marathon now, can continue to improve their value for 10000m, and to maintain their value in 5000m.

The problem is the calendar. Looking at two marathon per year, we need a period of preparation of about 3 months, without resting too much after the first seasonal marathon. This means, for example, that after a top marathon about the end of April, we have one month easy, one month for recalling all the fundamental types of training, based on the increase of the aerobic power, and 3 months specific, with the goal to extend the duration at the intensity of the marathon.

Nothing to do with the marathon of 30/40 years ago, the marathon of Rodgers, Shorter, Bob Hodge, a marathon for running 2:10. Now, we speak about two seasonal marathon at 100% of the preparation and of the level. This means more precision in recovering and in rebuilding what you lost during the specific period of training for the previous marathon, more concentration, and we can't be competitive in shorter distances on track at top level.

Different is the fact to skip, every 2 years, one marathon, for having a period of 3-4 months dedicated to the track, in order to enhance the speed. This is part of a technical project, and has nothing to do with the pleasure to run on track.

The difference between the mental formulation of a season "old style" and "modern style" is in a more accurate approach in training, while 40 years ago the main motivation was the joy of competing.

Under this point of view, we need to teach the marathon runners HOW to train without competing too much, but also HOW to compete without training, only.

Mr Canova I asked before in this thread but never saw a response. I'll ask again: Do you consult with coach Alberto Salazar and his athletes? Thank you.

Why do you put the suffix -san after your own name. Do you live in Japan? Can you speak Japanese? I hope you don't refer to yourself this way around native Japanese speakers.

Hodgie-san wrote:

malmo wrote:

Hodgiesan, I can't believe you're saying this. Ours is a sport where you are one injury away from retirement. There's absolutely no reason for him to alter his training for road races, and distract him from marathon training.

Excuse me, I did not realize that it is so wack to suggest that an athlete can compete successfully on the track and also compete on the roads.

I will defer to the experts.

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

.....the Tergat marathon runner was not the real Tergat, but his elder brother.

Thanks for your enlightenement coach! I laughed about the above quote on Tergat but I find it true from your explanation. Keep doing what you are doing and I think it a 2:02 marathon is around the corner!