50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

P.S. Last lap of my 4-miler was 1:49 (7:16 mile pace). Could have run sub-7 pace if someone had offered me twenty bucks to make it worth my while. Maybe even ten bucks.

Brittle,

Consider swimming with fins, some freestyle and kick board. Get regular swim fins, not the stubbies. The fins will give you enough propulsion to make it pleasant. Also, get a book on swim technique. It is all in the technique. FIRST does not recommend elliptical for load bearing reasons.

Igy

BM 1958 Since running is all relative though others may run faster we all can experience the same joy and satisfaction when a workout goes well. Also, regardless of the fact that we get slower as we age, the effort is or can be still the same. Nice job and keep it up.

Igy, thanks for the swimming advice. I will weigh it.

Coureur des bois, thanks for your kind words.

I followed Charlie's link to the article "Ernst Van Aaken: The Pure Endurance Method," at

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2016/07/ernst-van-aaken-the-pure-endurance-method.html?v=47e5dceea252

.

I found it quite interesting. Of course I cannot follow Van Aaken's advice of running high mileage, but the part about running most of my mileage slow will be no problem! In light of Van Aaken's advice, perhaps I will back away from my earlier idea of doing two or three tempo runs every week. Perhaps I will try doing one tempo run per week, and running the rest of my mileage slowly. In weeks when I race (if I ever get to the point of racing), the race itself could count as my tempo run, so to speak.

Van Aaken also advised being light. His leading athlete, Harald Norpoth, was certainly light at 6'2", 132 pounds (BMI 16.9!). Norpoth makes my current physique of 6'5", 160 pounds (BMI 19.0) look stocky, almost obese.

I found a long and interesting article about Norpoth titled "Profile: Harald Norpoth" at

http://www.racingpast.ca/john_contents.php?id=202

.

I must admit I knew nothing about Norpoth. Not even sure I remember hearing his name. If I'd had to guess, I probably would have guessed he was Norwegian from his name. But he was actually West German. Norpoth won 78% of his races and was one of the most successful middle-distance runners in the world, from 1964 to 1973:

"A three-time Olympian, his best performance was 2nd in the Tokyo 5,000 in 1964. However, he also ran extremely well in the Mexico 1,500 (fourth) and the Munich 5,000 (sixth). On the European scene, he won gold medals in three consecutive European Cups and in the European Championships he won one silver and two bronze medals. Although more of a racer than a record-beater-- "I was more the competitive type”--he did set a WR for 2,000 (4:57.8) and European records for 5,000 (13:24.8) and 3,000 (7:45.2). Norpoth once received a telling compliment from another great competitor of his era, Ian Stewart: “I respect him even more than Ron Clarke. Some think Clarke’s the be all and end all of running. He’s bloody good. But as a racer I’ve got to go for someone like Norpoth.” (The Times, Oct 24, 1969)

Norpoth never faded away; he simply walked away at the end of the 1973 season. In fact he ran his fastest 5000 of 13:20 in 1973, his last year of competition. But the rest of the world was getting even faster, and the Africans were rising.

Igy, I wish FIRST supported the idea of using the elliptical to cross-train! I already knew about the FIRST concept of running 3X a week and then making up (some of) the difference by cross-training. When I first heard about FIRST, I had already internalized the concept of never running two days in a row, due to my high risk of injury, so I was already running 3X/week when I was healthy enough to run (sometimes 4X/week when my first run of the week was on the first day of the week).

But I had not seen the two FIRST files you posted, which I downloaded for further study. They may prove useful to me. So I thank you again for that.

Brittle,

Glad to do it. On the elliptical, if it works for you, do it. That was just the FIRST suggestion. A number of years ago there was a very good 60 year old 800m/1500m runner. Like many of us he was managing his body in order to keep running, and he did a large amount of his training on an elliptical. One of our fellow poster has done the same. Just throwing out what may be helpful, and cull out the wheat germ for yourself.

Igy

Another Brittle....

https://www.podiumrunner.com/training/cross-train-like-a-triathlete/

M: off.

T: 6km.

W: 6km.

R: 6km.

F: off.

SA: 5km.

SU: 6km.

I kept each run short to get used to running five times a week. I was planning to run 6km on Saturday, too. But the park I usually run in was closed for the firework. So I went to a different park, and ran a different loop. And because the loop was more hilly, I decided to go by the time, instead of the distance. The goal for the next two weeks is to increase the distance, then a cutback week, and hopefully six runs a week after that.

Tough run today on my lunch hour:

0.25 mile warmup + 4 miles on the track in 41:39 (10:25/mile), 84 F., mostly sunny, very humid (in fact the weather report expects thunderstorms).

Splits: 9:18-9:46-11:03-11:32.

Last 2+ miles = Death March.

When I finished the run, I escorted myself off the track and assumed a prayerful position in the infield, on my knees and elbows, forearms extended, head resting in my hands.

As I walked back to the car, I realized I was bleating quietly, like a sheep that had just been shorn.

My shorts and shirt were soaked. I drove home and left a puddle of sweat in my car seat.

When I entered my house, I blacked out for a moment and fell to the floor on my hands and knees. I realized I needed to drink water, but when I tried to stand up, I got dizzy again. So I sat on a low stool in the kitchen next to the sink. I was panting heavily, even though I was not doing anything, so I realized there was some respiratory distress.

As I sat on the stool with my head down, I realized I couldn't even raise my head, let alone stand up and get water. I took stock of my situation. I was still sweating profusely. During my 25 years in the National Guard, I learned that sweating was a good sign: it means you are not yet in heat stroke. In heat stroke, your skin is dry.

I knew I needed to drink water. But drinking water alone can lead to hyponatremia. I needed something else too, like juice. I scooted on my butt over to the fridge and retrieved a jar of pomegranate juice. I set the jar on the kitchen counter and sat back on my low stool, with my head down.

My energy was temporarily used up, and I still hadn't managed to get any water or juice into me. My feet were starting to feel a prickly sensation. Despite some fumbling, I removed my shoes and also my shirt, because I remembered you are supposed to loosen the clothing of someone who has a heat injury.

This effort tired me out, so I rolled off the stool and lay on the floor on my back for a while. I noticed the floor was dirty. Also I noticed the prickly feeling was climbing up my legs, and my arms were also starting to feel prickly. My arms and legs were now dry, although my torso and face were still moist. I was feeling almost helpless. Things were heading in the wrong direction, but I didn't have any energy.

I lay there on the floor for a while. Eventually I gathered my energy and was able to retrieve the jar of pomegranate juice from the counter. But my arms felt all strange, like they were falling asleep and I couldn't control their movements. I lay on the floor on my back next to the jar of pomegranate juice for a while. Unscrewing the top of the jar seemed like a big task. But eventually I got the top of the jar and as able to take some sips. Gradually I started to feel better. In between sips, I enjoyed lying quietly on the floor.

Now all I want to do is sleep.

Lessons learned:

1) Maybe it's really not a good idea for me to run at lunchtime.

2) Maybe doing all my stretching and all my lifting, including "legs day," just before going to bed last night, wasn't the best preparation for today's run.

3) Maybe I should take the Badwater Ultramarathon through Death Valley off my bucket list.

Sometimes life after practice isn’t worth living. ?

Brittle,

That sounds dangerous. Allen1959 can tell you something about running-related heat injuries.

I guess this has been discussed here before, but I really think that early morning is the only sensible time to run on warm, humid days. I have run 5K and 10K races when it was around 84 degrees and humid, and while I suffered no serious problems, it sure was unpleasant. I currently do almost all of my running between 5 and 7 am or just a bit later, when the temperature is rarely above the mid-70s and not very humid. That is warm but tolerable, and quite safe. Can you really not run in the early morning? You don't have enough time in the morning to get sufficiently warmed up to run?

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Sometimes life after practice isn’t worth living. ?

Igy, I just have to beat my body into submission, that's all. Being weak and slow is no longer acceptable.

amkelley, I was thinking about running before work today, to avoid the midday heat and humidity, but decided I needed a full night's rest after a two hour workout comprised of stretching and full-body lifting routine just before bed last night. I'll take the lessons from today's workout and move on. At least I finished my run. That's another 4.25 miles in the bank.

I got up early this morning to meet our group at 5:30 am. Not only was it cool for our one hour workout, but we were out of the sun. That is good for conservation of energy, and for skin health. Sure running at mid-day can increase heat tolerance, but unless you are training for a specific race condition the additional stress seems pointless. One will just be more depleted for the next session.

I'm wondering if there isn't some kind of cumulative effect that this persistent heat & humidity has, esp. on us older runners. After the acclimatization period, which only takes a week or so, most of us have another 3 months or more of this oppressive weather. It seems the bellyaching gets more pronounced right around mid July every year after approx. 4 - 5 weeks of summer. You'd think we'd be somehow more adept, more used to it, even more acclimatized by now, but it's just the opposite. I had to bail on a workout today for only the 3rd or 4th time that I can ever remember. Planned a 6 X 1 miler (instead of a 6 mile tempo, thinking it'd be' easier') and tho I went out too fast, I could only manage 2 before cutting the next one down to a 1200, and the last 3 became 800s. It was an afternoon run with a temp of 93, real feel 104 and a 76 dew point. That dew point is actually about the lowest I've run in for at least 4 weeks now down here in S.W. Florida so not too out of the ordinary conditions, but I came home light headed and hurt'in, tho thankfully not as bad as Brittle!

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

Also I noticed the prickly feeling was climbing up my legs, and my arms were also starting to feel prickly. My arms and legs were now dry, although my torso and face were still moist. I was feeling almost helpless. Things were heading in the wrong direction, but I didn't have any energy.

Now all I want to do is sleep.

Whew, hope you are all right. Sounds like you were entering heat stroke rather than heat exhaustion. I sound like a broken record, but a treadmill is a great alternative to any type of bad weather, particularly if you want to do a hard workout. It's the cure for "time of day" training problems as well as being a heck of a lot safer in many situations. Also, "confused old people wandering the streets" is just bad press for us 60+'ers! I dread the day someone calls a "silver alert" on me while I'm on a run....

Rtype wrote:

a treadmill is a great alternative to any type of bad weather, particularly if you want to do a hard workout.

Actually I like treadmills, but I just cancelled my gym membership because I think it's way too soon to go back. COVID-19 seems especially risky for us older folks, and now they are saying all sorts of neurological problems can result from the virus, not to mention lung capacity problems. What a mess we are all in, with this virus affecting everything in our lives.

A buddy of mine told me that yesterday was a near-record for heat index here. Obviously Massachusetts where I live isn't Florida, but with climate change, the weather is getting hotter everywhere.

I used to think I was a pretty good hot-weather runner. Years ago, when I was in my 40's, I ran in our local summer 5K when the temp reached the low 90's, and I didn't think it affected my time all that much. Maybe a minute or less, I can't remember now. Now, at age almost-62 and in much worse shape, obviously I'm not the same runner I was then.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

Actually I like treadmills, but I just cancelled my gym membership because I think it's way too soon to go back.

Even though our Covid numbers are going up our Cross-fit gyms are going strong. Only they are making them do more outdoor running. I almost felt sorry for them on Tuesday where we had these big beefy guys running in 93 degree temps,

I decided the treadmill is so important I bought one and put it in the basement. I have a dedicated laptop setup that boots straight to YouTube where I can blast music over some attached large speakers. Time is no longer an excuse not to run, even it I have to do it late at night.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I got up early this morning to meet our group at 5:30 am. Not only was it cool for our one hour workout, but we were out of the sun. That is good for conservation of energy, and for skin health. Sure running at mid-day can increase heat tolerance, but unless you are training for a specific race condition the additional stress seems pointless. One will just be more depleted for the next session.

I get this, but getting up early to meet a group at 5:30 AM can also be stressful. If you’re not getting at least 8 hours of quality sleep, then you could be doing more harm than good.

Before I retired, I was up routinely at 5 AM on weekdays. Typically in those days I hit the sack at 9 PM, but there were still issues that often prevented getting a solid 8 hours of sleep: taking awhile to fall asleep, waking in the middle of the night, staying up a little later to watch a few more plays in the game, attending to the needs of a family member, etc.. Nowadays I rarely set the alarm and let my body determine when it has had enough rest (typically 8-9 hours).

Would I be better off getting up early to run while avoiding the heat of the day? Perhaps, but I think getting the proper sleep has more value to someone of my age (my physician agrees). If the heat and humidity are high, I adjust my running rather than my sleep.

Rtype wrote:

I decided the treadmill is so important I bought one and put it in the basement. I have a dedicated laptop setup that boots straight to YouTube where I can blast music over some attached large speakers. Time is no longer an excuse not to run, even it I have to do it late at night.

Rtype, that sounds like a great setup.

Unfortunately I wouldn't have a place to put a treadmill. Also I like going to gyms and paying short money to have access to a lot of equipment. Seems efficient and cost-effective. Sadly that's not possible these days.

Another hot, humid day here. Yesterday we had to empty all three of the big dehumidifiers in our house.