50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Amkelley: Good luck on the 8K and again, wow on those miles

lucKY: Wish I knew more about nsaids. All I know is they hurt my stomach

Igy: Great week and I appreciate your track knowledge

TU: 4 road with 5 hill repeats

TH: 3 treadmill easy

SA: 4 with 5K race: 1st M60, 14/147 OA :23:26 (7:35, 7:38, 7:32) (last year same course: 23:50)

SU: 4 paved greenway, easy

A really good week where I had my first race of 2020. It was, I think, the coldest morning of the entire winter so far (low of 17). At least there was no wind. I am especially happy to have knocked off 24 seconds from last year on the same course. That alone means a lot to me to have any improvement at all after 60. I felt really solid the whole way and was able to push the last 400 or so under 7 min pace.

Have a great week everyone!

It sounds like a lot of us currently are having some good training and racing. Congratulations to all. I got almost fully back on my training plan this week. Tuesday I got up feeling pretty toasted and bailed out of my planned workout, turning around and going home after a mile of my warm up. Everything else was on plan. 46 miles for the week -

M- 7mi walk with strides

T- 2 mi slow

W- 8 mi hills 8:43/mi ave

Th- 7mi walk with strides

F- 8 mi of 2 w.u., 400, 800, 1200, mile, 1200, 800, 400 with 400 recoveries at 6:50-7:00/mi pace

S- 7mi trails with my son 9:17/mi

Su- 7mi walk with strides

Good running to all!

So cool that a good chunk of folks are enjoying healthy fitness out there as we enter into springier training and racing conditions. I'm giddy to continue a lucky training streak with my last two aerobic tank builders 24 & 27 days out from a conclusion to a short but mighty Indoor Season.

How about this monster workout last Thursday in the cold cold rain?

3 Mile Tempo on the track in 18:50 (8min rest)

2 x 600 at 1:58-1:57 (600j rest)

3 x 400 at 78-77-77 (400j rest)

4 x 200 at 37-36-35-35 (200j rest)

You know you're fit when you can get through this fairly well but just can't go any faster. A perfect time to shift into the speed-endurance phase.

And today was a final aerobic tanker with a 13 mile LSD Run with the last half of 8 x 2mins 'on' ~6min pace 2min 'off' ~8min pace.

Now the biggest wish-for-luck comes for no injury nor illness with 26 days to LSU including 2x week of monster, magic, and taper speedwork on the track with spikes on! I'm sure all of my competitors in the M55-59 3000-1500-800 events have their fingers crossed as well. I can't wait to see many of these old friends for life in Baton Rouge.

KP

The benefits of working 8 straight shiftes was having 7 days off in a row. Didn't have to work until friday.

Mon. Regulation hour kayak session in the lake, blowing but not too rough.

Tue. Mtn bike is in the shop. Popped out a surprisingly fast hilly (10 hills) road ride. 90 mins.

Wed. Running legs were flat. Just cruised through the forests for 13 easy kms in 1 hr 18 m. A couple of smoother kms in 5.30 would indicate the very slow ave pace was terrain related.

Thu. A hot kayak circumnavigation of Green Lake in 1 hr 40 m.

Fri. Road ride 1 hr 36 m. I was flying the first half then felt rough on the 2d half. Overheated/ dehydrated? Humid but not particular hot (34°C by the end).

That night at work I felt dreadful. I was glad I had 2 big strong team mates with me as I lacked my normal physical grunt during the heavy going.

Sat. Felt ok on waking. I decided to take the weekend "off". I did roll through 40 relaxed minutes of spinning on the roadie. Felt ok but flat.

Sun. Feeling pretty flat after working day shift. Jogged about 700 metres then decided to just hike. 80 mins of s trails pretty easy just to move the legs.

So not sure what that was all about. Feeling good today and have the day off work before moving onto night shifts (yuk!) the rest of the week.

Maybe 2 fairly solid sessions in high humidity and hot sun on thursday and friday? The temps were not high for what I am used to but our local climate tends to be normally less humid.

Had another solid week here with 20+ miles of actual running (no fluff). Did a nice utility pole fartlek session as part of Wednesday’s run, but then had some on-and-off hamstring tightness for the last 10 minutes of the post-fartlek run. After a rest day, it felt decent on Friday but the hammy issue combined with a brutal wind chill led me to cut things short. Did a little extra today with no hamstring tightness until the final half mile. I think I have it under control. ??

Sun: walk w/ the bride

Mon: 57’ CR; body wt ex

Tues: off

Wed: 53’ CR w/ utility pole fartlek (4 x 1on/3off, 4 x 2on/2off); body wt ex

Thu: off

Fri: 43’ CR; body wt ex

Sat: off

Sun: 56’ CR; body wt ex

Best to most!

Looking for advice.

I'm over 60 and running 50 miles per week easy. I used to do a lot of speedwork, but this now takes a lot out of me. A hard 5k parkrun takes more out of me than a 10 mile easy run.

To do the two normally recommended quality sessions every week, I would probably have to reduce my weekly mileage down to about 40. However, I could probably increase my weekly mileage to 65ish, if doing no hard sessions.

What would be best, lower mileage plus speedwork, or higher mileage with little speedwork?

I do a lot of short races 10ks etc so that would count as quality sessions, and don't race longer than 1/2 marathons.

Alfie wrote:

Looking for advice.

I'm over 60 and running 50 miles per week easy. I used to do a lot of speedwork, but this now takes a lot out of me. A hard 5k parkrun takes more out of me than a 10 mile easy run.

To do the two normally recommended quality sessions every week, I would probably have to reduce my weekly mileage down to about 40. However, I could probably increase my weekly mileage to 65ish, if doing no hard sessions.

What would be best, lower mileage plus speedwork, or higher mileage with little speedwork?

I do a lot of short races 10ks etc so that would count as quality sessions, and don't race longer than 1/2 marathons.

My view would be volume if racing 10k to 1/2 marathon, and less but faster for 5k. A compromise would be longer session weekly run at 1/2 marathon pace, such as 5 x 1,000m @ 1/2 marathon pace with 1 minute rest.

Igy

Alfie wrote:

Looking for advice.

I'm over 60 and running 50 miles per week easy. I used to do a lot of speedwork, but this now takes a lot out of me. A hard 5k parkrun takes more out of me than a 10 mile easy run.

Hang on to your volume if you can. That’s your most valuable commodity for all distances. I would not reduce it unless you are forced to. Something fast once a week (could be a race, could be Igy’s 5 X1000). Maybe instead of a full-blown hard second workout, mix in a progression, or a short set of something like drills. You may find you really don’t need but one really hard workout a week.

Alfie wrote:

Looking for advice.

I'm over 60 and running 50 miles per week easy. I used to do a lot of speedwork, but this now takes a lot out of me. A hard 5k parkrun takes more out of me than a 10 mile easy run.

To do the two normally recommended quality sessions every week, I would probably have to reduce my weekly mileage down to about 40. However, I could probably increase my weekly mileage to 65ish, if doing no hard sessions.

What would be best, lower mileage plus speedwork, or higher mileage with little speedwork?

I do a lot of short races 10ks etc so that would count as quality sessions, and don't race longer than 1/2 marathons.

Thank you for your question. The challenges you describe are not unusual. They are why training is periodized. During a base building phase your mileage will be higher. Once you start a more speed specific mesocycle, your volume is reduced.

This is not to say that each phase is restricted to just one component. It is the emphasis that changes with each mesocycle. For example, during your base building phase you should still touch on speed with some striders or flies. Similarly during a speed focused mesocycle you would still be doing a fair amount of aerobic work.

Have you drawn up a seasonal, or annual, training plan for yourself? If not, that would be a good place to start.

Best of luck to you.

I'm running some and xc skiing a little on the weekends. Will update next week or so. Have a good week!

54 yo male; currently at 45 mpw, easy pace 10-11 min/ mile , previous up to 55 mpw during marathon training with tempos, CV intervals, and a few MP workouts ( 2x6 mi@ MP in middle of 20 mile LR); goal sub 4 hour marathon next fall , recent PRs 1:49 half, 48:12 10k

I’m currently in a base building phase but pondering what kind of training plan to follow for a fall marathon. I failed badly at NYC last fall despite a good training block. Many factors were involved but one was that I didn’t do enough Marathon specific pace work. I though my coach at the time gave me too much faster stuff and I think I was over trained.

Going into fall I like the idea of making my own plan and I think I do better on a 10 day cycle. My work schedule entails working every 4th weekend which makes LRs impossible ( but I’m able to do a LR the Monday after that 4th weekend.

I was thinking of making a plan based on 10d/11d/7d repeating cycle over the course of 20 weeks followed by a 3 week taper

The 10/11/7 cycle would go as follows:

•Sa- steady run ( 8-10 with 4-8 at MP+ 10 sec)

•Su-LR with 4-5 at MP

•M- ez

•T- off

•W-Marathon specific workout( choose from 3: hill repeats followed by 4-6 at MP, alternating miles -MP -10, 10k pace or 2x5to 2x6 at MP-10)

•Th-ez

•Fr- ez

•Sa- tempo

•Su- ez

•M- ez

•T- off

•W- steady run ( see above)

•Th- LR w/ 10k pace surges

•Fr-ez

•Sa- ez

•Su- MP specific( choose from 3 : see above)

•M- ez

•T-off

•W-tempo

•Th- ez

•Fr- ez

•Sa- ez( work weekend)

•Su-ez

•M- LSD long run

•T- off

•W- MP specific

•Th- ez

•Fr-ez

Then repeat that cycle 5 x

On my LRs that had pace work I would top those out at 16-18 as I would be doing a steady state run the day before so I would be doing them on tired legs ( ala Hanson’s)

Over the 20 weeks I would have 10 LRs with pace work, 5 LSD runs, 10 marathon specific sessions as workouts , and 5 standard tempos)

Until then I just plan to work on building a solid base, running 6 days a week with one day of some quality ( hill repeats, Fartlek or Tempo)

I think this plan would give me plenty of miles at MP but with enough rest built in

What do you think? Thanks in advance

Alfie wrote:

Looking for advice.

I'm over 60 and running 50 miles per week easy.

Hi Alfie,

Interesting - sounds like we may be in somewhat similar situations. This week I just completed 52 weeks of 50-55 mpw with two times a week hard sessions (=ing 15-20% of total mileage).

I too am seriously considering dropping back to about 45 per week but maintaining the quality work. Not sure if I need the last 10 miles a week I have been putting in and probably would do better with intensifying my harder workouts and then resting more on my recovery days.

One might thinkthat after 46 years of running I would have figured some of this stuff out by now.

Anyway, dropping back a few miles I really don't think will hurt either one of us. 45 mpw is a good solid number and we are kids anymore. So.. starting this week it is back to 40s. It is a good week to experiment as I have a race on Friday night followed by a another the next morning.

Please keep us posted how things are turning out for you - us oldsters need to share our experiences!

Alfie wrote:

Looking for advice.

I'm over 60 and running 50 miles per week easy. I used to do a lot of speedwork, but this now takes a lot out of me. A hard 5k parkrun takes more out of me than a 10 mile easy run.

To do the two normally recommended quality sessions every week, I would probably have to reduce my weekly mileage down to about 40. However, I could probably increase my weekly mileage to 65ish, if doing no hard sessions.

What would be best, lower mileage plus speedwork, or higher mileage with little speedwork?

I do a lot of short races 10ks etc so that would count as quality sessions, and don't race longer than 1/2 marathons.

Shortly after turning 50, I got injured while running 65-70 mpw with two workouts. (This was posted on this thread in 2015.) After that injury, I decided to cut back my workouts to once a week. When I do progression long run, that counts as my second "workout." I race mostly half and marathon, and do shorter races only as workouts. So our situations are a bit different. But if half marathon is your main target, then I would go with more mileage, less speedwork.

My week.

M: off.

T-W: 7 miles.

R: 9 miles.

F-SA: 7 miles.

SU: 17.8 miles.

I did the longest run since April 2018 with a decent pick up for the last mile. (7:49) I think I could build up enough endurance for a marathon by late April. How fast I can go is entirely another question.

Last week, I found that Nike was now offering VP 4% at discount. So I ordered one. I will do my "test run" this weekend.

Scubacane -- your marathon buildup plan adopted to your work schedule sounds pretty solid. I might suggest stretching out at least one long run to 20 - 21 miles, but 18 will get the job done (if I missed something on the LR strategy, my bad!)

Your sense that your coach gave you too much speed work for your last marathon buildup rings true. It depends on the athlete. In my current marathon build, I did literally NO intervals. I know, it can help, but I just do not enjoy intervals in the context of long race prep, so I go for a range of fast run workouts.

Also it is interesting to read Alfie's workout questions and the comments back. I've been averaging about 54ish MPW over my current marathon build, bouncing between 2 and 3 hard runs per week (one of which is the long run). I back off when I need to. I get impatient if I go too long without throwing it down and testing myself, but I also did take two days in a row off a month back when my right hamstring BARKED at me. Happily all is well!

Looking forward to seeing how my fellow geezer long distance people resolve these questions and progress!

Good luck!

Big Red wrote:

Scubacane -- your marathon buildup plan adopted to your work schedule sounds pretty solid. I might suggest stretching out at least one long run to 20 - 21 miles, but 18 will get the job done (if I missed something on the LR strategy, my bad!)

Scubacane, my sense is also that there should be a couple of 20+ mile runs in a marathon buildup. I've never quite understood why many marathon training plans for the non-elite have the long runs topping out at 18 or 20 miles. It seems to me that you'd want to do a couple of training runs that take at least as long in duration as the planned marathon. Back when I was young and a good marathoner, I ran up to 23-24 miles in training. Of course, back then I was running marathons well under 3 hours and now I'm hoping to just get under 4. Perhaps one shouldn't run for close to 4 hours in training? But ultramarathoners do it...

Anyway, I'm building for a marathon the last weekend of March and have done runs of 20, 21, and 22 miles in the past 5 weeks, and am planning at least one more 20+ before the race. We'll see how it goes. I just ran a half-marathon in just under 1:49 and I, too, am shooting to get under 4 in the marathon.

Hi all. Amkelley, I’m so pleased to read a race report with a happy ending! Hope you rack up another at the 8K.

Things fine here. Trail race coming up, 5K + HM for 19.4 miles to build up the legs. Then the Indy Half. It’s 2 days before my 55th birthday but I’m not going there to win my AG. (For that matter, my pension plan is being terminated because of a certain Chapter 11 bankruptcy three weeks before I’m eligible for that. But the federal government has my back there so I will win my pension......eventually. )

Anyway, I came to post because I just watched this new TED talk by the great Stephen Seiler, the Texas Norwegian. Good stuff.

https://youtu.be/MALsI0mJ09I

Up to date efforts:

1/20- 48 minutes- 6 miles- easy run- indoors

1/21- 45 minutes- 5 miles- hills

1/22- 41 minutes- 6 miles workout 4X1000- 1 mile warm-up- 4:08; 4:06; 3:56; 3:56- w/800M jog recoveries each being 4 minutes- short cool down

1/23- 40 minutes- 5 miles- hills- easy run

1/24- 50 minutes- 6 miles- running on snow pack- pretty rough

1/25- 64 minutes- 8 miles- easy run

1/26- rest

36 miles Total

============

1/27- Indoors- 37 minutes- 5 miles- easy run

1/28- 36 minutes- 4 miles- hills, slush and mud- lame conditions

1/29- Indoors- 40 minute workout- 16X200- 5 miles total- 49;48;48;47;46;46;46;45;43;44;44;44;42;42;40;38- 800M cool down @4:30

1/30- 44 minutes- 5 miles- 15 degrees on snow pack

1/31- Rest

2/1- 65 minutes easy tun- 8 miles

2/2- Rest

27 Miles Total

================

2/3- 40 minutes- 5 miles easy- more slush and mud, slippin' around

2/4- 43 minutes- 5 miles easy- hills

2/5- 47 minutes indoors- 6 miles- 12X 400 workout- 1 mile warm-up- 1:39; 1:39; 1:34; 1:34; 1:33; 1:35; 1:34; 1:32; 1:32; 1:30; 1:28; 1:26- was doing relaxed 200 jog recoveries

2/6- 43 minutes- 5.2 miles

2/7- Rest

2/8- 62 minutes- 7 miles

2/9- Rest

28 miles total

===========

2/10- 37:30- 5 miles easy- indoors

2/11- 39 minutes 5 miles- easy

2/12- 48 minutes- 6 miles- indoor workout- 6X800- 1.25 mile warm-up and cool down @ 9 minutes

3:16; 3:11; 3:06; 3:06; 3:00; 2:59

2/13- 38 minutes- 4.5 miles easy

2/14- Rest

2/15- 69 minutes- 8.2 miles- easy- very cold, 2 below wind chill- wind sucks

2/16 Rest

28.7 miles total

Ran a tempo today with 1.5M @ 12:30 for a warm-up- a 3 mile mile tempo run at 19:42 followed by a 1.5M @ 13:30 cool down.

Curious as to how others do tempo runs and what that pace would seem to translate to for a 5K race knowing all of these things are multi-factorial.

Nice tempo work today Allen53.

The last year I really pursued the 5K was 2007 (at age 50). Tempo runs? I'd go out the door for a 4-mile run, building pace as I went. I'd turn up the heat and roll. My legs would fill with lactic acid at about the 3-mile mark. Then I'd jog home the last mile. I have no idea what the pace was.

That year my best 5K was 19:10; I did run a 3-miler race in 17:55 that year, much better than the 19:10. When they sent out the results (back in the postcard days, I lived in Portland OR then) - they corrected the race distance to 2.95. I still would call it worth about a 19:00 5K. Heck, let's say 18:59!

Today I ran a 9.1 mile temp run. Out 38:16, back 1:11:32 (neg split 33:16 second half, about 7:19 pace). I'm 11 days out from a road marathon. I pushed hard today and my legs filled up with lactic acid about the last 300 yards.

I've done 5 workouts (3 tempo & 2 long) in the last 15 days. I will now hit the brakes and taper!