50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Jimmy Gilbert wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Creating a caloric deficit. Max VO2 formula is driven in part by body weight.

I agree that reducing fat means reducing calories, but why would you want less energy?

Also, how does body weight figure into VO2max?

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I think I addressed the energy issue, empty calories versus beneficial calories.

Vo2 Max = maximum milliliters of oxygen consumed in 1 minute/body weight in kilograms

I don’t think you did address it. Empty calories are still a source of energy as is body fat. I’m not saying someone should try to add body fat or consume a lot of empty calories. But we should not overlook their energy contributions, especially body fat which plays an important role in distance running.

As for VO2max, it seems you prefer the relative rate to the absolute rate which does not figure in body mass.

Hit the dunes for 30 minutes felt a little pain right shin so stopped nothing too worrisome.

On the drive home decided to run an 800 at the old high school track.

Already warmed up so just did 3 x 100 22,21,20 ok but my left upper hs a bit tight so ran clockwise.

All I wanted from this was sub 3 without it being too tough.

Hit 85 and came back with an 86 for 2:51.37 this was somewhere between 800 and 1600 pace so I preserved my top end After almost 3 weeks of very little running, 5 days of FMD fasting and 2 weeks of Keto I will take it!

So now I feel the need for speed but I am going to be trying something new. I will keep most of the easy sand dune running but also do HIRT not HIIT High Intensity Repeat Training (just made that one up)on the track or treadmill.

AND

vo2max stuff on my mtn bike. I standup and run/sprint on the pedals using a 92 inch gear for 3 minutes then 20 seconds or so rest then another 3 minutes the last minute feels like the last part of an all out mile. But NO IMPACT! Reducing impact is key for me but gotta get some impact hence the HIRT stuff.

On another note the older we get the bigger the role that health plays in our runspan.

Here is an interview with Dr. David Perlmutter , he is 64 and runs a lot among other things.

Kinda long , the last half is probably the best.

https://youtu.be/2hR9sD9eX-A

Jimmy Gilbert wrote:

Jimmy Gilbert wrote:

I agree that reducing fat means reducing calories, but why would you want less energy?

Also, how does body weight figure into VO2max?

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I think I addressed the energy issue, empty calories versus beneficial calories.

Vo2 Max = maximum milliliters of oxygen consumed in 1 minute/body weight in kilograms

I don’t think you did address it. Empty calories are still a source of energy as is body fat. I’m not saying someone should try to add body fat or consume a lot of empty calories. But we should not overlook their energy contributions, especially body fat which plays an important role in distance running.

As for VO2max, it seems you prefer the relative rate to the absolute rate which does not figure in body mass.

I did address it, you are just twisting to arrive at your conclusion.

grandpaboy wrote:

Sunday 10/13 - Chicago Marathon, crashed hard the last six miles, 3:54

M - 8.05 miles, solo, 8:51 avg (9;16, 9:12, 9:02, 8:55, 8:48, 8:44, 8:33, 8:26)

T - off

W - 4.21 miles, w/friends, 9:13 avg (10:17, 9:37, 9:04, 8:18)

Th - 6.46 miles, easy w/friend, 10:04 avg (10:51, 10:25, 10:04, 9:47, 9:16, 10:11)

F - off

Sa - 5.14 miles, solo, 9:01 avg (9:21, 9:20, 9:15, 8:51, 8:24)

Su - 12.02 miles, partly with friends who are aiming for a sub 2 half, 9:01 avg, (9:25, 9:10, 9:19, 9:20, 9:13, 9:14, 9:29, 9:06, 8:14, 9:21, 8:39, 7:54)

It's amazing that you could run this much in a week after a marathon. I could not even imagine this in my wildest dream. Right now, I cannot even do anything remotely close to this after a half marathon.

Anyway, here is my week.

M: off.

T-W: 7 miles.

R: 8 miles.

F-SA: 7 miles.

SU: 15.5 miles. (9:05 for the first mile and 7:57 for the last mile.)

15.5 miles is the longest I have run in 14 months, and 51.5 miles is the most weekly total in 14 months. My legs are still a bit sore after one day of rest. I will take a cut back this week, and start another four week of build up after that.

Over the last couple of months or so I have been running pretty well. I had run 16 track races (8 at 800m, 6-1500m, and 2-400m) and did very well.

In October over the last 2 full weeks, I ran workouts training for a road 5K on the last Saturday of the month but there is a conflict in my schedule so I probably won't race it now. I will probably continue to do mostly 5K training for a while because of the time of year it is.

I just made up long speed work as I went along on the 8th and 15th.

After a warm-up, I ran faster parts using markers along the course. Each recovery was a standing recovery of 1 minute. The first fast part was .67 of a mile, then .67 mile, then 1 Mile, then .25 mile to complete the speed endurance type running. I cooled-down. I walked some.

On the 10th and 17th, I ran speed on an incline. The speed repeats were 10-220 yards up and 220 yards down jogging.

On the 10th I did not feel well afterwards but on the 17th I felt great after running them.

I only walked on the 18th, 19th, and 20th because of the way I felt and because there was some family over.

On the 21st, I had a great easy run of 8.2 miles over some small hills and it felt great.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Jimmy Gilbert wrote:

I don’t think you did address it. Empty calories are still a source of energy as is body fat. I’m not saying someone should try to add body fat or consume a lot of empty calories. But we should not overlook their energy contributions, especially body fat which plays an important role in distance running.

As for VO2max, it seems you prefer the relative rate to the absolute rate which does not figure in body mass.

I did address it, you are just twisting to arrive at your conclusion.

Why so snarky? I twisted nothing and certainly didn’t need to in order to arrive at any “conclusion”. I merely posted well established scientific facts.

Jimmy Gilbert wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I did address it, you are just twisting to arrive at your conclusion.

Why so snarky? I twisted nothing and certainly didn’t need to in order to arrive at any “conclusion”. I merely posted well established scientific facts.

This is the original post you questioned:

“Lowering body fat more important than diet to improve VDOT. “

Nothing you added changes or contradicts any of my statements. I was the one that provided the scientific formula that you initially questioned. When faced with the facts you chose to pursue a line of logic that has little to do with the initial post. So I suggest you move on.

RF reader wrote:

grandpaboy wrote:

Sunday 10/13 - Chicago Marathon, crashed hard the last six miles, 3:54

M - 8.05 miles, solo, 8:51 avg (9;16, 9:12, 9:02, 8:55, 8:48, 8:44, 8:33, 8:26)

T - off

W - 4.21 miles, w/friends, 9:13 avg (10:17, 9:37, 9:04, 8:18)

Th - 6.46 miles, easy w/friend, 10:04 avg (10:51, 10:25, 10:04, 9:47, 9:16, 10:11)

F - off

Sa - 5.14 miles, solo, 9:01 avg (9:21, 9:20, 9:15, 8:51, 8:24)

Su - 12.02 miles, partly with friends who are aiming for a sub 2 half, 9:01 avg, (9:25, 9:10, 9:19, 9:20, 9:13, 9:14, 9:29, 9:06, 8:14, 9:21, 8:39, 7:54)

It's amazing that you could run this much in a week after a marathon. I could not even imagine this in my wildest dream. Right now, I cannot even do anything remotely close to this after a half marathon.

I had the same thought. When I was in my 30s I would usually run a bit the day after a marathon, but not 8 miles! However, after my own crash-and-burn marathon in March (4:02 finish) I took two days off followed by four easy days and then cranked out a decent half-marathon race seven days after the marathon. Not generally recommended, but it seemed to work OK for me.

amkelley wrote:

RF reader wrote:

It's amazing that you could run this much in a week after a marathon. I could not even imagine this in my wildest dream. Right now, I cannot even do anything remotely close to this after a half marathon.

I had the same thought. When I was in my 30s I would usually run a bit the day after a marathon, but not 8 miles! However, after my own crash-and-burn marathon in March (4:02 finish) I took two days off followed by four easy days and then cranked out a decent half-marathon race seven days after the marathon. Not generally recommended, but it seemed to work OK for me.

Oddly enough I felt pretty much OK the day after Chicago. Complete 180 from how I felt afterward, which was probably worse than I've ever been at the end of a marathon. Think that maybe the legs were ready for the distance but the fueling system wasn't.

the good, the bad and the ugly of the last couple of weeks: the ugly--still stinging after a very sub-par effort at the 5k x-c championships; the bad--a three mile tempo at 5:53 pace, which was progress, but slower than what i used to do my 10 milers at just a few years ago; and the good--tonight, with some help from my teammates during our regular tuesday night track session, i broke 5 minutes for the mile for the 38th consecutive year. 4:51 through 1600m, though i ran the extra meters at the end to officially run a mile. not sure why, since my 1st time at the age of 14 in 1982 i only ran 1600m, but my 4:57 then would be sub-5 by any conversion method. kinda cool to think at the age of 52 i'm faster than my 14 year old self, but i was hoping during this age bracket i'd be able to approach my 16 year old self...

carpe crepusculum,

cush

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Jimmy Gilbert wrote:

Why so snarky? I twisted nothing and certainly didn’t need to in order to arrive at any “conclusion”. I merely posted well established scientific facts.

This is the original post you questioned:

“Lowering body fat more important than diet to improve VDOT. “

Nothing you added changes or contradicts any of my statements. I was the one that provided the scientific formula that you initially questioned. When faced with the facts you chose to pursue a line of logic that has little to do with the initial post. So I suggest you move on.

I did not question that statement. Rather, I asked you to explain it. I was hopeful that there might be an educational dialogue around the subject, but you seem to think I was trying to “change or contradict” what you wrote or pursue some imaginary “line of logic”. That could not be further from the truth.

It seems that you are unwilling or unable to dialogue on the topics, so indeed I will move on.

Good job Cush. That is a long streak!

Rather simple Jimmy, unless I am missing something: 1) lowering body fat is most important to improving middle/distance performance (as measured by Max VO2); 2) getting there is more important than diet (creating caloric deficit); 3) it is understood that a balanced diet is better than a poor diet.

Not sure what else there is?

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Rather simple Jimmy, unless I am missing something: 1) lowering body fat is most important to improving middle/distance performance (as measured by Max VO2); 2) getting there is more important than diet (creating caloric deficit); 3) it is understood that a balanced diet is better than a poor diet.

Not sure what else there is?

Well said! ?

Hmmmm. I don’t think anyone wants an abundance of body fat, but fat is an excellent fuel source for long distance runners. So how much is desirable?

Mufasa wrote:

Hmmmm. I don’t think anyone wants an abundance of body fat, but fat is an excellent fuel source for long distance runners. So how much is desirable?

Nice job Cush. Keeping the sub-5 streaking along.

My final one was age 53 and 4:55. Should-Uh-Could-Uh-Would-Uh at age 55 if that 4:35 1500 at Worlds would have inspired me to find a true mile somewhere in August.

C'est La Vie KP!

Coach X wrote:

Mufasa wrote:

Hmmmm. I don’t think anyone wants an abundance of body fat, but fat is an excellent fuel source for long distance runners. So how much is desirable?

https://www.peakendurancesport.com/nutrition-for-endurance-athletes/weight-management/running-body-fat-walking-tightrope-optimum-performance/

Thanks, Coach! I didn’t see anything about VO2max in there though. How does body fat affect that?

Mufasa wrote:

Coach X wrote:

https://www.peakendurancesport.com/nutrition-for-endurance-athletes/weight-management/running-body-fat-walking-tightrope-optimum-performance/

Thanks, Coach! I didn’t see anything about VO2max in there though. How does body fat affect that?