50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Same here.

amkelley -- Wow, scary to see that low weight, especially after actively rehydrating the day before. I don't know the biology, but I'm surprised your body processed and expelled so much of the water you drank, given the state of dehydration. Kudos for getting out there today for that long run. What's the course like at your next marathon?

KP -- I'm looking forward to reading your shoe essays beginning in March! Also, very impressive week.

Charlie -- Did I miss something? You were having great results, barefoot in the sand, then I recall some issue where you backed off. But now back again! Was it the type of sand or something like that? Anyhoo, I wish I could realistically cut-and-paste your goals into my own log. Rooting for you! Age 62-63, right?

CM -- Congrats again on that 10K. 88+% AG at altitude!

SCgal -- It's so impressive how strong you've come back. It wasn't THAT long ago you suffered a broken ankle, right? Good luck in the upcoming tri.

Rtype -- You beat me in miles this week, and in being harassed (those darn "tough kids" in then school band, haha). Alas, I only get friendly waves -- folks driving by who I don't even know. I wave back. Also, sorry, I misattributed your zombie quote to RFR!

Igy -- Your progression - in health and fitness - is inspiring. I'm taking a closer look at your schedule. It seems a few here have incorporated walking ... that would be difficult for me. For some reason it seems to stress my lower back. Never liked to walk ...

dhaaga -- Maybe slower than last year, but that's still an impressive half marathon, especially the way you progressed through it. Also, I really enjoyed Breaking Away when I first saw it in the theater. I took my younger brother to a matinee showing, and he's been a cyclist ever since!

MikeF -- Strong running this week. I'm three years younger, but would love to see similar times. Of course, I started out more than a couple minutes slower at 5K back in the day ...

Happy trails, all

Allen1959 wrote:

Charlie -- Did I miss something? You were having great results, barefoot in the sand, then I recall some issue where you backed off. But now back again! Was it the type of sand or something like that? Anyhoo, I wish I could realistically cut-and-paste your goals into my own log. Rooting for you! Age 62-63, right?

Happy trails, all

Just turned 63 that is why I did the sub 6 mile trying to go under 6 every year lifting the calf deal.

Well I ran a 5000 in 19:05 that was good June 22nd . Then I took 2 weeks off not injured just shutting it down.

Restarted a bit too fast and the sand during the summer is looser so I had a little hip pain probably IT band so I did some running on hard stable surfaces but not really injured ie no pain while running. So the hip thing was just a little while and I am back on the sand but "rotate" surfaces like Sunday I ran walked 5/5 minutes on the beach in shoes hard sand then ran 3.5 on asphalt . OTOH I did a 23 minute brutal (fun) tempo in the dunes a 3 days after that mile on the track. Most runs are easy with a weekly Lactate Threshold. Not much difference between my peaks and valleys as my limiting factor is an enzyme deficiency.

It’s a fundraiser for the team. I’m interested in it mostly because, other than today’s race I decided to skip for ankle’s sake, it’s literally the only other competitive 10k this fall. Though I must say the Billy Mills angle fascinates, especially since I heard him on

Thanks to amkelly and many others that have wished me support.

I am thinking about ditching the marathon and getting ready for Tokyo 2020 for the 1500m freestyle. On Monday as I mentioned in my last post, I got in the pool for the first time this year, and I did 492 yards in 17:22. On Wednesday I did 547 yards in 19:22 and shaved a second off my 100y time! I didn’t get to the pool on Friday like I had planned and ended up going on Saturday, which was supposed to be my rest day. I had planned on not leaving the couch after I got out of bed, but it was not to be. I went down to my local rec. center and did some lower body strength training. I am bagging upper body strength training after I did something to my back on Tuesday. I am going to take a 10 day break from upper body strength training to see how my back reacts. Anyways, I got back in the pool and did 656 yards in 19:27. I took over 30 seconds off my 100y time. At this rate, I should be smoking Mark Spitz by next month, and Michael Phelps some time in early November. I have a sneaking suspicion the improvement may not be sustainable at the current rate.

Sunday I did my long run of 13.1 miles. I continued my walk jog pattern. Higdon meets Galloway. I was supposed to do a half marathon last week on the half marathon plan. I couldn’t find anything for last week or this week. So I upped the long run 1.5 mile last week and 1.2 this week to get to the half distance. I basically just switched the weeks in the plans. I am just trying to finish these long runs. They are supposed to be easy, but I don’t know if that is 1 or 2 minutes slower than marathon pace or something else. After next week or the week after, I am going to try and do some McMillan marathon race pace (30 minutes) in these runs every other week and try to see where I am. My pacing is still very difficult to gauge on what feels right compared to what time I want or think it is.

I had no idea what should be my goal other than finish. I think I pushed too hard in the middle of the week. I wanted to run easy, and I didn’t care if that was close to 12 minute miles or slower for the jog sections. The pattern was walk 0.5 miles jog 2 miles, repeat 4 times, and finish up with a 0.6 mile walk. These were my times with W denoting half mile walk:

W Mile 1-14:00

Mile 2-9:29

W Mile 3-12:46

Mile 4-9:29

Mile 5-9:42

W Mile 6-13:21

Mile 7-10:30

W Mile 8-13:54

Mile 9- 10:53

Mile 10- 10:05

W Mile 11-14:23

Mile 12-10:41

W Mile 13-15:11

Total time 2:36:32

11’56”

Positives: 24 seconds faster per mile than last week over extra 1.2 miles

Negatives: Second half much slower than first half

Miles 1, 11, and 13, I walked with my wife, which may have slowed me down a bit. I was definitely getting slower during the second half. I had no water until the 10th mile and had a small handful of trail mix at mile 7. I typically don’t eat before a run, bike or swim, unless it is more than 2 hours.

When you mentioned the quality of the long run, were you referring to preparation for this race or races going forward? I don’t know what more I can do at this point for this marathon. I am incorporating hills, and more intensity than Higdon dictates as well as more cross training, swimming, and strength training. I have been doing the strength training 3x a weeks and he calls for no more than twice a week. In addition, I am doing more weight every session, doing more miles on my bike at a faster clip, swimming more yards at a faster clip. My running is getting faster as I go longer distance as well. Do you think I should do longer distances for my long runs for this marathon? I have Runcoach for free until my marathon and their recommendations are all over the map. They had my longest run being 13-14 miles and 2-3 miles a 2 other days and 24 miles five weeks before the marathon. I don’t understand their algorithm at all.

This October marathon is a foundational race. I am going to use it as a cornerstone for more training. I think I will focus on shorter races like 5-15ks next spring with a half marathon starting and ending the season. I will work on my speed and, if things work out, have a better base for a marathon next fall.

I am really confused on what time I can strive for in this marathon. I feel like I have a fair amount of gas in the tank whenever I finish my sessions other than this past Thursday when I felt like I had overdone it on the previous 2 days. At this point, my primary goal is to finish injury free and jog the miles I want at the times I want and walk the distances I want that I set out before the race begins. If I do it under 5 hours or not is a secondary goal at this point. I am pretty sure I can do it in under five hours barring injury or illness, but I may be unrealistic.

I have 2 more questions for you or anyone with an opinion. First, food and hydration what works for you before a run and during one? Secondly, do you use ibuprofen or aspirin for nagging injuries or any other reason? I didn’t use anything for my back pain, because I wanted to see how I handled my long run without any medication. Still not sure if I should take anything for it.

Lastly, I have read the first 20 pages of this thread over the past few days. Hope to get caught up to where I started reading recently. Why does it seem so many have such limited flexibility? Is this still an issue with many of you?

KCgeezer wrote:

Are we all avoiding doubles for the most part? Occasionally a double pops up on someone's log but it seems masters steer clear of them. If that's out, then 7-day running seems my only option if I'm to get my mileage up.

Although I am only doing about 50-52 mpw, I do one or two two a days. Usually one is on Wednesdays as we do a track workout on Wednesday eve and I find if a do an easy three in the more I feel a little looser. Being retired allows me to take a quickie 45 minute nap in the early afternoon as well.

Decent week.

52 miles total

-Monday 5k handicap race; 20:18 actual clock time 4th place in both the handicap and timed category. Age graded to 16:09 which would have been a near PR in my 'youth'.

-Wednesday very good track workout: 2x800 1x1600 4x400 at 5k race pace with 200 meter jog recovery

-Friday 8 miles with 1 mile covering the course that I may race on this coming weekend and 6x150 strides

-Sunday 6+ with 5k being at our local monthly Donut Dash event (I forego the donuts and just use it as a workout) I hit the last mile almost exactly at my desired race pace without pushing it and wearing light trainers.

The rest of the miles were pretty easy, although my weight has been an issue as I slipped under 131 a couple of times this week in spite of eating like a horse and drinking fluids like a fish. My supportive spouse gets a little freaked about this, but I know I am eating when hungary plus plus and my times have been okay in timed events. I have tried to eat more healthy by cutting out extra sugar and eating more fruit and vegetables but as a result my caloric intake may have dropped. I am hoping it is just aging and having lost some muscle weight.

Have a great week everyone!

Old fat n stoopid,

To me you are doing fine, you just need to keep at it. I don’t eat before I run, but since I go before work I usually have coffee, which I am doing as I type. If I am doing a long run I take a goo and water bottle belt. I avoid taking pain killers routinely, but have in the past to sleep well.

A couple other comments, you can also try this pattern for a long day: run four miles, walk five miles, run four miles. In regards to swimming on easy days, I use fins alternating 200 yards kicking, 300 yards freestyle. The fins provide flexibility to your feet, a measure of propulsion, and keep you in the pool longer. Hope this helps.

Igy

ex D1er, saw that US ski team member Liz Stephen won the overall women's race in the Grand Traverse. I did Ned Ned once, back in the mid-80s and went out with the lead pack, including that spring's Big 8 5000 m champion. It didn't end well for me, but my wife won the women's race and we still have a big polished geode/crystal trophy in the house.

KC geezer, I do doubles most weeks, usually about two or three. Rationale is sometimes it's difficult to get in a full 9 or 10 miles on a workout day (e.g., tempo or reps) when I have to be at work by 8 or 8:30, so I break it up into workout and then an easy, short run; sometimes I just need to break up a regular run (easier to do two 35 or 40 minute efforts than 75 or 80).

Also, did a Billy Mills 5K in the early 90s in Ithaca, NY (pre-rojo days there). We made almost a day of it, with the race in the morning, and in the afternoon he gave a speech and did awards, and we watched the film Running Brave.

And finally, Carlsbad is on my bucket list, especially it because seems that USATF Masters Grand Prix seems to be struggling to find host races but I still want to get to a bigger event at least a couple of times a year. The circuit went from 9 races (6 road, 3 XC) in 2017 and 2018, 7 this year, and so far down 5 (2 road, 3 XC) for 2020. Still plenty of time to pick up another race or two.

Very similar training program that I utilize. And I'm also your weight of 170 lbs, though a midget at 5-6 (my son says I'm closer to 5-5 these days. Lol). Due to some chronic pathologies and early onset OA, I can only run 15-16 mpw spread over 3 days with one day being a speed workout if not have pain issues (a couple of 1 mile repeats or a 1 mile TT). Two days are cycling like you're doing, though I do mine on a spin bike. The other two days are weightlifting sessions, stretching exercises & some core work (I also have a bad back from a MV accident that needs aggressive rehab).

All my running now is on dirt roads/paths at open space parks to reduce the impact forces that are exacerbated with my weight & injuries. I'll do a few races (5ks) every year and give it my best but I'm not competing for any age group top 3 or anything like (simply not fast enough with this build of mine & the injuries).

Regrettably, my competitive running came to screeching halt in 2016 when I completely ruptured my posterior tibial tendon of my ankle when I sprinted an uphill finish of a 5k. Complete rupture with medial column collapse and now OA developing on the talus. I had several years of posterior tibial tendonitis before the rupture - which I think was the result of several ankle sprains sustained way back in my HS & college football days in the late 70s/early 80s. So, if anyone here is experiencing any PTT - pay attention to it and take extra care of it. You don't want a rupture - it totally collapses the medial side of the foot and creates a deformity!

Have you tried most of your running on softer surfaces? Even before my rupture, I had pretty much transitioned all running except one day of speedwork (track) to softer surfaces. This made a huge difference in reducing the next day's soreness & inflammation. Lighter much thinner guys will have significantly less impact forces than heavier guys (no surprises there) and can better handle running on harder surfaces (though many do train on softer surfaces). Also, I do regularly ice baths which make huge difference in controlling inflammation and reducing my need for pain medication - have you given that a try? (NFL football players do it all the time).

Hang in there & best of luck.

Curious: Would surgery allow you to return to pre-injury level? Or is there any aggressive rehab protocol that might bring you close to pre-injury level? What type of surgical procedure would you be facing? Would this entail a long non-weightbearing recovery period or do they have patients weightbearing and initiating ROM excercises post-OP?

As I mentioned my PTT rupture - the only surgical option for me is ankle fusion (arthrodesis) which stiffens the ankle and doesn't allow any dorsiflexion and therefore no running. After my MRI, I had a couple of opinions from top foot & ankle surgeons who both agreed that if I wanted to run at all, then fusion wouldn't be an option (they're usually done to simply control pain in the joint). If they had a surgical option that would allow a return to pre-injury level, I would probably do it (I was running 30 -40 mpw, lots of speedwork and racing year round pre-injury).

Got to admit I was feeling rather discouraged in these last few days. Did not seem that my lower back pain was any better, so for my "long" walk yesterday, went ahead and "ran" a bit. Very short strides and only at about 12:00 mile pace, for 0.1 miles. Did not seem to flare it up more, so did more, and so finally did a total of 4 x 0.1, 3 x 0.2 and 4 x 0.25 miles, all untimed until the final one, which was about a 2:54. Back did not get more sore afterwards, and was able to do some stretching and mobility work last night, too. This AM, minor soreness only! Did a total of 2 miles run and 4.5 walked in 1:38:36, and a 30 mile week of walking!

I feel for those with more chronic injuries and don't want to be seen as a whiney and selfish person. Yet, I did postpone my 1/2 marathon (from next month to next year) at a cost of $28 added dollars. Going to join my wife in Tucson next month instead as she continues to resolve her late mother's affairs. October in Tucson should not be so bad! Plus, can run on some nice firm-sand trails!

Go Chiefs and protect that QB!

Stocky Old Runner wrote:

Would surgery allow you to return to pre-injury level? Or is there any aggressive rehab protocol that might bring you close to pre-injury level? What type of surgical procedure would you be facing? Would this entail a long non-weightbearing recovery period or do they have patients weightbearing and initiating ROM excercises post-OP?

Hey, those are all great questions, and I'm gonna save them to a document in case I ever decide to look further into it. As soon the specialist said "sever the tendon," I dismissed surgery as an option. Instead, I should have asked all of your questions!

From what I understand, they'd cut the quadriceps tendon, grind off the patella bone spur, then somehow mechanically reattach the tendon.

All my running is on packed crushed stone/sand and dirt (towpath and road shoulders). Most of my shoes are quite minimal, but I have one pair with a higher stack dimension and more cushioning. Unfortunately, they also have a greater drop, which stresses my knees. Is there such a thing as a low-drop cushioned shoe?

A stretching and strengthening protocol would probably help reduce the tendinitis and irritation. I'm just lousy at doing the work. Tedious, boring and time-consuming.

I've never done ice baths. I don't like cold! And the research I've read is inconclusive. Gimme a hot shower or hot Epsom salt bath. But I dunno, maybe that's the worst thing I can do.

Compared to you, my woes seem insignificant. I will count my blessings. I admit, I had been looking forward to competing in national events at age 60, maybe joining an area Masters team. So I'm dealing with that disappointment. I even had a sub-3 marathon in my sights less than a year ago! Oh well, it was fun to dream!

Best to you.

A retired orthopedic surgeon lives across the street. He is about five years older and looks like he received bad devices you see on the instance settlement commercials . Unsure if he ever had another of his profession work on him. Skeptical of some of these “cures,” yet medicine likely saved my life.

Congratulations to all who had good races and new born grandkids. My miles are only about 20 for 7 day period. Feel my better for as fatigued point but left calf still have some small tightness. It's bc I rush it for the Atl 5k and ran the 1 mile the following week and the 10 miler next day. So just piddle paddling with 30min a day and some spinning bike. Did manage 7 miles before calf started to tighten up. So I'll try be patient. Great 88% AG 10k CM. Have nice week all.

Catching up on all the new discussions! It seems to be really active these days. Wish I had more to offer...

I had an ok week going but the achilles pain has been getting worse over the past few months. So to steal a line from 80s band Loverboy... 'I've had all I can take, I can't take it no more'! With a mile to go on Fridays lunchtime run around Notre Dame, I decided this is stupid, I'm not running in pain anymore. So its back to walking and all the cross training and rehabbing I can take. I'll be taking off, again, for however long it takes. I'm still thinking positive though with plans of running fast again someday and dominating the 60s next year! (Said somewhat sarcastically...)

Things will be ok...

Have a good run,

Dave

Racerdb wrote:

... I decided this is stupid, I'm not running in pain anymore. So its back to walking and all the cross training and rehabbing I can take. I'll be taking off, again, for however long it takes. ...

Aargh, that's really disappointing. You've been running very well! Your latest "comeback" has been impressive as heck. I hope the rehab works out, and you truly can dominate at 60! Good luck!

Allen1959 wrote:

Racerdb wrote:

... I decided this is stupid, I'm not running in pain anymore. So its back to walking and all the cross training and rehabbing I can take. I'll be taking off, again, for however long it takes. ...

Aargh, that's really disappointing. You've been running very well! Your latest "comeback" has been impressive as heck. I hope the rehab works out, and you truly can dominate at 60! Good luck!

I think finding out what works as one approaches 60 is difficult. The temptation to do as a 50 year old is pretty strong, while the resiliency of connective tissue gets increasingly challenged. Hey 50 years old is not that old, boy at 60 the dynamics can really change. Of course that is not true for all of us, and if you can get away with a “younger you” routine you’ll be BETTER THAN MOST.

You guys know what I am gonna say but say I will anyway.

This come back started 3 years ago right after I turned 60. The first two years went just like my other attempts. I did lots of cross training and ran every 3rd day. Yep I was knocking out about 10 miles a week and my legs were sore all the time. My lower legs/calfs were getting worse and worse. I was using the kinesio and a heavy duty vibrator and all kinds of pt type stuff. NADA .

One year ago it was time to quit but then I played a hunch and tried the sand barefoot. First week I ran 3 times 90 minutes each as a really really really sloooow pace but man my legs felt great. I was amazed at how fresh my legs felt.

Ended up with a few issues minor ones because sand is not perfect and adaptation is needed but REMOVING IMPACT MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE ALSO THE SAND IMPROVES MY FORM/ECOMONY AND MUSCLE STRENGTH.

Several tricks:

1.Run by effort not pace. Trying to run fast in sand would be a huge mistake

2. If something hurts STOP and REST or RUN on hard surfaces a few days

3. Adjust your toe off .I will call this sand shoeing just sliding along works great for recovery

Biggest problem is not having sand second biggest problem is there is just not that much data cause ya think shoe companies want to fund research on running barefoot in the sand? What if legit studies verified my experience.

Take a golf ball drop it on pavement this is your legs on pavement. Drop the ball in soft sand. Now throw that little round ball hard guess what happens on pavement OUCH in sand a different story.

The GRF studies have not studied this the so called penalty on toe off when running in sand is baloney.

Not only can I run 40 minutes a day painfree that sand running makes running on hard surfaces much ezr. It is like my tendons are more elastic from sand running.

Medication time I gotta go

A running shoe from Adidas that simulates running in sand:

https://www.dezeen.com/2018/08/22/adidas-aarish-netarwalas-trainers-running-on-sand-sportswear-design/

I cannot keep up with all the discussions, so I am just going to comment in this question on doubles.

KCgeezer wrote:

Are we all avoiding doubles for the most part? Occasionally a double pops up on someone's log but it seems masters steer clear of them. If that's out, then 7-day running seems my only option if I'm to get my mileage up.

Up until about a year ago, I was doing regular doubles, once or twice a week. ( Or even three on some occasions.) I want to take one day off per week, either for cross training or rest. The most I could handle in six runs is probably around 60 miles. So if I want to run more than that, I had to run doubles on some days.

For the past 12 months, I have been spending my morning on therapy and rehab works. My feet are feeling better now, so I might cut back a little on those, and start running 3-4 miles in the morning again. Or maybe I will do 30-40 minutes of cross training (stationary bike or elliptical) instead of short easy runs. I haven't decided yet.

My week went like this.

M: off.

T-SA: 6 miles.

SU: 9 miles.

My next race (half) will be on Sunday. I think my fitness level is similar to where I was in April. I don't expect the same kind of time for this race. The course is tougher, and the temperature is way higher. I am just going to race, with no specific time goal.