50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

CM, it was Ted Wheeler. My attempt to make the team had me try to keep up with a sub4 miler that was returning from 3 months off for plantar fasciitis. His first or second run was to do 20 x 400 on a HARD outdoor track! I could not keep up for 4 of those, such was my talent. That guy became reinjured soon after. I could not believe that Wheeler could keep a head coaching job after I saw that.

Hey Charlie...something's not adding up with these heart rate calculations. Are you saying 50% of your mhr is 120bpm? Instead, it seems like you may be using the Karvonen method...where you take the a percentage of the difference between resting and max heart rate...and then add it to the resting rate. For example...if your resting is 60 bpm and your max is 180 bpm...then 50% under the Karvonen method is 50% x (180-60)=60, then add this 60 to your resting rate of 60 = 120.

So I'm thinking when you say 40-60% it must be the Karvonen method. Have I got that right? Thanks

M60 -- 5'11" 173 lbs

Goal: Be age-group competitive this fall

August 5-11, 2019

M- Bike 18.3 miles @ 19.6 mph

Tu- 50 mins elliptical

W- 7.7 miles @ 10:08

Th- off

Fr- 10.0 miles @ 10:28 avg

Sa- off

Su- Bike 24.3 miles @ 19.9 mph

TOTAL: 17.7 MILES

Only two runs this week as I continue heal my hamstring. With two consecutive low-mileage weeks, my weight has crept up a couple pounds, which isn't good. Meanwhile, I've tentatively scheduled a 5K at the end of the month, so we'll see how things go between now and then.

SoCal...'eliptiGO vs eliptiWENT' quite funny...I love good wordplay

CM solid mile...at any elevation...nicely done.

Mike L...Ted Wheeler, an Olympian at 1500 in 1956 was quite the stud: Personal Bests: 440y – 48.6 (1953); 880y – 1:50.3 (1955); 1500 – 3:48.0 (1956); Mile – 4:04.7 (1956); 2 miles – 9:16.0 (1951).

I had what was probably my best week of 2019...most miles of the year at 33 (I know, big whoop)...back to back to back weeks at 30+ for first time this year...knuckleheaded streak is now at 225 days...should hit 800 miles YTD on Tuesday

Did 2 track sessions this week, Monday 2 x 100 , 6 x 200 and Thursday 2 x 100, 2 x 200, 1 x 400, 2 x 600, 1 x 800, 1 x 400 and then Saturday a hard 5 mile progression run on the track

No definite racing plans...perhaps Bridge to Bridge in San Francisco in a couple of weeks...a race I won in 1978...in another lifetime...in another galaxy...perhaps a track 5,000 meters down in Santa Barbara early October...mainly just maintenance mode...aiming for 111,111 miles on 11/11...how esoteric is THAT? Whatever it takes to stay moderately amused...ya' know?

Regardless, thanks for sharing your war stories for the week...they always keep me motivated and inspired.

Have an extraordinary week of pickin' 'em up and puttin' 'em down.

your pal,

MF

PTF yeah Karvonen with a Heart Rate Reserve of 120 180-60 Max - Resting

My Max is more like 190 but I have been using 180 .

What I do on my standard easy base days is run for 7 minutes or so and do a finger to neck 5 second count which ranges from 9 to 11 I subtract 5 (5x12=60 my Resting HR) and this gives me my percent 40 for 9, 50 for 10 and 60 for 11. Interestingly enough I can also feel how strong the pulse is and there is a big bump from 10 to 11 or from 120 to 130 . I figure this is related to max stroke volume.

KC 113 all I can say is I adapted to running at a low HR heck I can run at 96 bpm 30 percent mhr read the hadd and mofetone stuff what happens is you gain economy at the low heart rate it takes some time and I am going pretty slow but imo running is running as long as you are getting some air time ie both feet off the ground . It is not for everyone truth is I enjoy running slow of course I like walking too.

Mike Lundgren wrote:

CM, it was Ted Wheeler. My attempt to make the team had me try to keep up with a sub4 miler that was returning from 3 months off for plantar fasciitis. His first or second run was to do 20 x 400 on a HARD outdoor track! I could not keep up for 4 of those, such was my talent. That guy became reinjured soon after. I could not believe that Wheeler could keep a head coaching job after I saw that.

I heard some stories. His son was a year behind me in school and was a pretty good basketball player, who hated running at the time. The Cretzmeyer-Wheeler era there lasted for 50 years. Cretz had some great distance squads in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

On weight, as long as I run enough, I can keep it down to what it was when I was running my fastest, about 35 years ago.

Then was 5' 9" and 148 lb. which is heavier side for mid-distance. Probably why I declined steadily at distances once they got past 3000m.

Did get slightly lighter when running in hot and humid Mississippi a a few years back, when training for a 10k. It might have helped as I age graded at 85.11% which was a surprise considering how ordinary I was over that distance as an open runner.

I'd like to get down to 145/146 on the basis that if I've got less muscle, then I should be lighter!

Been gradually trying to work my way back into some better running over the last few weeks. Had a sore spot on the inside of an ankle - something I'd never had before - but wasn't interfering with running until I did 8 at 7:22 average about 5 weeks ago, and then had to walk downstairs backwards the next day.

Turned out to be posterior tibial tendonits, which I'd never suffered from or heard of before. Probably down to calf atrophy - when I went to the physio, it turned out I had no knee reflex on that side. Anyway, 5 weeks of laser have been making an impact, and it's a lot, lot better. Some work on the left back/hip got the reflex back, and I think some improvement in calf strength.

Have managed to keep running, but the back of the right leg had been tightening up in protest to the extra work it has been doing.

Finally getting somewhere, I think, after five weeks of running most days, but very moderately. Managed four miles at 7:30 yesterday.

When I'm right I'm trying to do 5 miles x 5 times per week steady (7:30 +/1 10 secs), 1 quality session, and 1 longer run of 60 min or plus. Maybe working up to the odd 90-100 min if I go slow on trails.

One thing I do find odd - maybe as a function of being more a speed runner - is that it relatively to longer paces, my steady runs are way quick (compared to say half-marathon pace - I'd say that my steady run is faster than I could run for a half-marathon - when young, my marathon pace was about 1:15 per mile outside my 10k pace). Even at that, though, according to my Garmin, at 7:30-7:40 I'm only averaging 123-125 heart rate, and it's telling me that I've done a 'maintaining' effort. A three mile tempo at 6:50 per mile in the middle of 6 mile run, only got into the mid-140s (I'm reckoning on a max of 165 - it was 175 about 8 years ago, so that seems conservative).

Anyway, it seems I'm locked into having run at a pretty high intensity to get much cardio-vascular upside. Maybe it's the result of 45 years of mostly fairly intense stuff (used to run either 2 track session and a race, or 3 track sessions a week in the track season until my mid-30s where I dialed it back to 2 hard sessions a week).

Dardee wrote:

I really don't need to weigh myself bc I can tell when I'm gaining weight. Not so worried about losing weight.

Carry on.

Sooo Dardee... I am having of the opposite problem sort of - keeping weight on. Slipped under 130 again this weekend (not good or normal for this 5'10 62yo). But have been eating and re-hydrating like mad to get back to 134-/5. I think some of it has to do with the hot weather and recently cutting out a lot of refined sugars.

This week went pretty well otherwise. Week #25 of 50 miles+ and 15% at mile to 5k pace.

I had a minor breakthrough yesterday - Warning this is is a bit of humble/brag:

Trained through a local 5K race on Saturday. The national USATF master's mile is coming up in a couple weeks and I want to do well. Jumped into this race to test my fitness level and surprised myself a bit.

First master (1/34) and FOR ME a very good time - 20:11 (best so far since turning 60)

Finally moderate race condition! -68 degrees- and a flat course. I was helped by there being LOTS of youngsters 15-25 y/o in the race (lots of HS X-C runners), so I had someone to chase and focus on. To some of you speedsters this would just be another race, but my time WMA age grades to 16:08 and 80.43% - Pretty sure I have not ever done that before (some high 70s, but not at 80%) . For me this is sort of big deal because as I said I trained through this race. I think the almost daily strides and track workouts are starting to pay off. We will see in Flint in two weeks.

Hope all have a safe and productive week ahead.

Regards,

WDF

For Coyote: https://www.lane1photos.com/Portfolio/Event/Pearl-Street-Mile-2019/Pearl-Street-Mile-60/

Thanks Charlie. Makes sense now.

Geez...you were actually using the same numbers I used in the example. Weird.

KCgeezer wrote:

Charlie, that is worth thinking about as I continue running. I’m pretty sure my max HR is 189 so that would mean running sub113. Seems mighty low even for a recovery run.

KCgeezer...according to Charlie...when he says 60%...it's not 60% of your max heart rate. It's 60% of the difference between your max heart rate and your resting heart rate...then added to your resting heart rate. So you need max and resting to calculate.

PTF wrote:

KCgeezer...according to Charlie...when he says 60%...it's not 60% of your max heart rate. It's 60% of the difference between your max heart rate and your resting heart rate...then added to your resting heart rate. So you need max and resting to calculate.

OK, let’s do this. My resting is 57, max is 189, diff 132. Times .6 yields 79 + 57 = 136. I may average this once a week, on my recovery run the morning after track. Otherwise I’m almost always in the 140-157 range.

As I’ve discussed in the past, I’ve used training zones based on LTHR, but that was frustrating because I was never sure I had my LTHR properly calculated. One time I figured it to be 165, another time 175. I know this is reverse engineering but if we take Charlie’s formula and use 136 as the high end of HR zone 1 (recovery), that would suggest my LTHR is 168, so right in line with Charlie’s calculation.

Below is Matt Fitzgerald’s zone calculator which helped me calculate my paces and HR zones back when I was doing that more deliberately. I’ve pulled back from applying too much thought to my easy runs and instead start slow and gradually increase my pace. So going sub-136 for all my easy runs would require an entire shift in training philosophy on my part. The only reason I’d do that, I think, is if I needed more volume, say 60-70mpw, and I wanted to ensure my legs didn’t get too beat up. Or I got injured ....

OK. For me that comes out to 115. On the Garmin, it's going to tell me that it's having minimal training impact. I would also be concerned that I'd be going so slowly that it would mess up my biomechanics. If I take it to 70% of HR reserve, it gives me 127.5, which lets me run about 7:30 or a bit slower.

Snippets from the last few weeks:

Bailed on a free 5k on roads because I just couldn't convince myself that I cared enough to run somewhere i don't like. Realized that a race, by itself, is not motivating enough for me.

Got attacked by an owl on my long run - I stopped and stared at it and then foolishly ran towards it to go to the trail. Good thing I ducked, since it only got my forehead -- but I'm still a little jumpy on the trails.

Went to a running retreat with some friends and my regular long run partner and I got off track and wound up running for over 3 hours. I was getting pretty frustrated not being able to figure out the trail map to get us back, but really felt bad for my training partner who usually only run 10 miles (of the maybe 25-30 weekly) for a long run and we were out a lot longer.

Swapped a track workout for a similar workout on the trails in a park - sort of felt like a wuss, but really was a much better experience for me.

Unlike virtually every woman I compete against, I weigh "too much." While most "normal" people think I'm thin, I know I'm much heavier than all of my competitors. The best I can do is eat well, get enough sleep, so my strength/injury prevention stuff and run and hope it all just finds the right place.

Happy trails!

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Sorry, the above should have been addressed to KCgeezer. Here is one article, and tgere are many more on the subject:

https://prostate.net/articles/can-bike-riding-cause-prostatitis/

Why are you picking on cycling? Some of us have OA and other joint pathologies and can't run anymore or at least with a great degree of limitations compared to our younger days.

Unfortunately, I was at very back of the line where most of you guys were at the front of line when they handed out running genetics. I'm built like a tank where a lot of you guys are built like VWs. Joint destruction and pain has been harassing me the last five or so years.

I wish could continue running like I did in my glory days running 50 mpw over 5 days with plenty of speed sessions and year-round racing. Now in my 6th decade of life I'm barely running 10 miles over 3 days. The spirit and motivation is there but the body won't cooperate. Don't think genetics aren't the key factor that allows a high-impact activity like running to be performed on a regular basis?

Genetics is everything...it's the only thing.

I have no choice - it's cycling, primarily spinning, to reduce the impact on the joints and maintain CV fitness (and keep my sanity!). I'd rather be running free spirited like lot of you but unfortunately we don't have a choice in the genetic lottery of athletic ability (I hope someday in the afterlife I can get some answers).

HIIT is excellent for cycling workouts:

I like cycling and I think it is great exercise. My decision is based upon my treatment and issues created by chemotherapy and radio therapy. Perhaps down the road I can revisit, but for now I need to take a pass.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

For Coyote:

Thanks Igy, those are great pictures. Dave Albo is an excellent photographer, and also a very good masters sprint and middle distance runner. I'll have to order one of those.

The official time was 3 sec slower than I reported the other night. DK pulled a muscle on the last lap, otherwise I would have been 2nd. MG, I hear you on the shorter races---I'm not keen on them but see them as necessary part of training for the longer ones. In a way, somewhat similar to the long mountain ascents, although I like those better than a 5K. They are just so hard! But good workouts and tougheners.

Mike F, thanks for reminding us that Wheeler was a stud runner, though I'd still suggest (argue?) that his coaching left his runners broken. Iowa was never better than 8th or 9th when the Big Ten was 10 schools. This year, we won Big Tens outdoors for men, and 3rd for women. Joey Woody is the current coach. Maybe he's a terrific recruiter, maybe kids finally realize that Iowa's a great school, maybe we just have great school colors (black and gold), and/or facilities (indoor banked track, dedicated cross country course), or maybe it was knowing that 20+ Democratic nominees will be in town someday :)

Some of the above is pure joking, but seeing him smoke on the track at our indoor meets was enough for me. Again, my talent was nowhere near enough to make the team anyway. Seems his philosophy was "make 'em or break 'em".

Coyote Montane wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

For Coyote:

Thanks Igy, those are great pictures. Dave Albo is an excellent photographer, and also a very good masters sprint and middle distance runner. I'll have to order one of those.

The official time was 3 sec slower than I reported the other night. DK pulled a muscle on the last lap, otherwise I would have been 2nd. MG, I hear you on the shorter races---I'm not keen on them but see them as necessary part of training for the longer ones. In a way, somewhat similar to the long mountain ascents, although I like those better than a 5K. They are just so hard! But good workouts and tougheners.

Coyote,

I hung out a bit with Dave Albo at the USATF Masters Nationals several times over a decade ago. Saw these on his Facebook post and thought you might like to have them. Doug Smith the Canadian Masters middle distance runner has also done some great work. Rich Castro posted one of the photos of his finish at Pearl Street on Facebook, may have also been an Albo shot. I remarked how I am more interested in seeing photos of my generation than the young bucks.

Igy