50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Just the image maybe Earl is bigger because of his training?

http://www.ranelagh-harriers.com/images/339-ont1500.jpg

One of my favorite Earl vs Ed articles HIIT vs LSD pluses and minuses gotta admit Ed looks pretty bad but I think you can have great endurance and keep some muscle . I started C2 and Lifting a few months ago and love it.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/fitness/running/running-ed-whitlock-and-earl-fee-compared/article34897068/

RF reader wrote:

Here is a tastier alternative to sliced beats. And I don't think there is any side effects...

https://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition-weight-loss/a28593688/watermelon-nutrition/

.

+1 because beets won’t hurt you but watermelon after a run is faaaaaaantastic.

Hey this raises a sensitive subject but I might as well bring it up.....RACING WEIGHT.

How do you determine what’s ideal for your next race? You don’t have to share numbers here but I didn’t know if anyone else thinks about this.

Because I lost so much weight the first year I did some research on this and read Matt Fitzgerald’s book on racing weight. He’s got an online calculator but of course, the methodology he uses on that is a mystery.

I’m thinking of experimenting with going a little bit leaner, from my current 11 percent body fat to say 10 or even 9.5 percent, if I can get there using non drastic means.

Charlie wrote:

@Allen53 IMO you need to crank up the volume and slow down the pace 9 to10 minute miles with say a weekly 7 minute per mile 3 mile and some striders here and there. After about 6 months add a mile to the tempo run when you can crank out 35 for 5 along with 40 easy miles you will be ready to crush a 5k just by adding 8 weeks of traditional 5k specific workouts alternating with the tempo like this 6x800, tempo,3x1200,tempo,2x 2400 , tempo Race a few times.

I’m with Charlie on this. How do we compete? Volume volume volume! Last night Kid Coach had us hobby joggers doing 7x700 at 5K pace with 2min recovery. Today, an hour of 10 minute miles at the park. I couldn’t go any faster! Yet last night there I was ripping out a 5K at top speed. Doing 15 miles in less than 14 hours is possible only because I crank the speed way down for the sake of getting a full run in. Let the kids call those junk miles, to me they’re invaluable.

KCgeezer wrote:

How do you determine what’s ideal for your next race? You don’t have to share numbers here but I didn’t know if anyone else thinks about this.

I was struck by the phrase "what's ideal for your next race" and wonder whether I'm interpreting it correctly. To me, this implies that you might try to move your weight up and down throughout a racing season to optimize it for some particular distance or type of terrain. It seems to me that it's really hard to change your weight by enough to matter over any reasonably short time period, and that trying to do so probably isn't healthy.

Between ages 20 and 45 my weight yo-yo'd a couple of times between about 103 to 135 pounds, but it always took years to gain or lose 30 pounds. Since age 45 my weight has been pretty stable in the 112-115 range (before breakfast, naked). It's hard for me to gain weight quickly unless I cut way back on my activity level, which would sort of defeat the purpose of training to race well. It's also really hard to lose much weight without feeling very weak and, again, defeating the purpose of training to race. I did my best racing at 103-105 pounds but I looked awful at that weight and I really have no desire to get that skinny again, even if, after stabilizing at the lower weight, I got my strength back and was able to run better.

Interested to hear what others have to say on the subject.

Charlie,

Forgive me if I'm being a bit dense here but could you clarify that those workouts are each to be done on separate days (and one week apart)?

Meaning, for example, the 6X800 is done one week with the 3X1200 the next week or a similar format. You're not suggesting those three workouts you listed be done on the same day, correct?

Hope this makes it ezr to read:

Weeks 1 - 24 base building

5 or 6 days of ez running build up to 50 minutes a day if possible

1 day a week is for a tempo run. Start with 3 miles and try to slowly progress to 5 . Make sure this run is slower than your current 10k pace. If you use a heart rate monitor keep it at 80 percent maybe up to 85 at the end of a run but no higher

Pick a day and do some strides but all ways a rolling start and never too hard . I like to do some before a tempo

Weeks 25- 30 5k specific training is just ONE day a week with the other days easy base.

week 25 6x800 at goal race pace recovery as long as you need

week 26 Tempo 5 miles

week 27 3 x 1200 at goal race pace recovery as long as you need

week 28 Tempo 5 miles

week 29 2 x 2400 at goal race pace recovery as long as you need no sweat if you can't finish the 2nd 2400

week 30 Tempo 5 miles

Ready to Start Racing

Have Fun!

Hope this helps.

That's great- appreciate it.

I talked about some of the weight topic before, but here is kind of a summary. First, weight pretty significant factor, especially if you just examine it from a VO2 Max calculation. As a young man I ran my best at around 140 lbs, which for 6 foot, 3/4 inch is pretty lean. As a masters athlete I ran my best at about 155 lbs, still low body fat for my build. Last Saturday I weighed myself hydrated but after a poor race effort at 171 lbs. A year ago, six weeks after chemo I was a still bloated 190, but probably down 10 lbs from the high. Even at 171 lbs I am heavy for my frame, probably 165 lbs would be a good level as a non-racing runner. So the goal is to get back to 155, however prior to my diagnosis at 167 lbs I ran 2:59 800m, 6:32 mile and 22:30 5k. Good, but not great times for a 67 year old. Now I do have thoughts that the weight loss and improving times was linked to the cancer. Odd that sounds, but I had lost about five pounds the fall of 2017. On the other hand, my GP encouraged me to gain 10 lbs prior to chemo and it was a simple request, so maybe no correlation between weight loss and the lymphoma. In summary, if I am to achieve earlier age graded performance peaks the weight has to approach 155 lbs. At times I do question whether the damage from chemo and the relapse risk make this an unattainable and perhaps foolish goal. In the meantime I continue to try.

Igy

On the previous page I meant to add that although I've held up okay over the past 15 years, it always seems like I'm on the edge of falling apart.

Per amkelley's weight question, I've mentioned this in the past. In college I raced too thin, at 135 +/- (just under 5'10") and didn't good eating habits. I'd bump up to 140-145 in the off season. Post college to about age 35 I'd run at 138-140 and XC ski race in the 140-145 range, and barely got over 150. But at 35 I decided to back down from training and weight went to 150 and stayed there for the next 20+ years. After long injuries it crept to 160 or so (peaked at 163-65 for a week or two one year after I hadn't run for 2 years) but I'd bring it back down over a couple months. Race weight for skiing and running was always about 149-152, and in the spring as tapered and raced ski marathons and I transitioned back tor running it would creep up to 155-160 and I'd have to fight like hell to shed those extra pounds for the "early" (May) road races in Alaska.

I changed my diet at 58 due to high cholesterol and AIC and weight dropped from 150 to 138-140 and has been very consistent since. Even when I got injured and couldn't run for 3 months, and very limited for 5, I only gained a couple pounds. This helped with a late 50s resurgence, and since I've been able to match 10K to half marathon times that I was doing in my late 40s and early 50s. Diet and weight have made a big difference in the past 3-4 years and I think a stable weight is healthier.

weighing on the the weight

early 40s when I ran my best Age Graded Times 132 or so

early 60s Now 131 or so

But one big difference FAT I have way more body FAT and less MUSCLE now .

The 501 test don't lie.

Never toss 501s.

My 501 collection include various waist sizes to that reflect various Charlie sizes ya know what I mean

Same pair with a 29 inch waist in my early 40s fit loose like an extra inch in the waist

Today they are TIGHT so I am packing extra FAT at same weight.

That is why I am trying to add MUSCLE.

Ended up running 20:52 last night- certainly the most difficult course I've raced on- after 1/2 mile flat the next 1/2 mile straight up an 8% grade to the mile marker. From there downhill to the 2 mile marker and flat thereafter. Conditions were 70 degrees and 90% humidity- it poured 10 minutes after the race. Felt sluggish but not too dissatisfied. Legs felt good but air felt quite heavy.

thanks also to KP, SCgal, cush, and Allen1959 for condolences, yes my wife is so compassionate, she's my hero(ine).

My weight has always been about 150 since high school (loved to not run then), ballooned to 170 in college, started running and back to 150. peak marathon fitness weight was 146-8. Now, with sinus issues leading to lower back pain, have backed off on the weights, and my weight has DROPPED to 144! Would love to see how that changes my running, but back is too sore to run as yet, and need to put some muscle back on my shoulders/arms/chest. Aw well, the plights of aging and fitness!

Charlie wrote:

weighing on the the weight

The 501 test don't lie.

Never toss 501s.

My 501 collection include various waist sizes to that reflect various Charlie sizes ya know what I mean

Same pair with a 29 inch waist in my early 40s fit loose like an extra inch in the waist

Today they are TIGHT so I am packing extra FAT at same weight.

That is why I am trying to add MUSCLE.

This is awesome. I never knew!

Inform I just got a pair with STRETCH so I’m afraid jean measurements will never be the same!

CM, I assume you eat like a horse still? . That’s a great diet if you lost 15 lbs. permanent on it.

Allen53 wrote:

Ended up running 20:52 last night- certainly the most difficult course I've raced on- ...

Congrats. Gotta figure that's worth close to 20:00 or under on a flat course. You think? A half mile up an 8% climb!

Re: Race weight--

I'm 5'11". In high school I was 155. In my early 20s, racing well, I weighed 160-165. Returning to serious competition in my early 40s, I was 165-170. I was lifting more regularly then, and a bit bigger in the arms and shoulders.

During my recent "comeback," I was racing at about 157-160. Weak shoulders and skinny arms. Not a good look, but think it was key to my success at age 58 -- 59:59 for 15K, 3:07 for marathon (relative success ... I know, slower than most here! ).

My wife complained about the emaciated appearance. That's from a 5'7" woman who, in her 30s was racing at 110 pounds! That was before I met her, but I've seen photos, and it was not a healthy look.

Anyway, between each of those four competitive periods (high school, 20-23, 42-43, 57-59), my weight jumped at least once to 185, but stabilized usually at 170-175.

Again, earlier this year, I hit 184 (and complaints again from dear wife!). Down to about 172 now. Looking for 165.

Re: The Weight Question

I'm 5'5" and shrinking with small bones. My best racing weight is 105-107. I intentionally try to put on some weight during my summer down time because I know I'll lose weight once my mileage and intensity increase when the weather cools off. Right now I'm at 112. That's my upper limit. I feel clunky being this heavy but I know I'll gradually lose weight between now and November when I've got my "A" race. Then I'll slowly pick up a few pounds over the holidays. I don't like staying at my best race weight for too long because it doesn't give me much reserve in case I get sick.

Re: The Weight Question

I'm 5'8 (and not shrinking so far) In high school and college I ran at 130. In 1972-1974 while I was in the Navy, I got down to 126 for those years when I was doing something where eating was a lower survival priority than some other daily activities. Over the subsequent years when work was really busy and we had young children I drifted up to 137-139, and, to the extent I squeezed in exercise time, I did a lot of swimming and surfing as well as low-mileage running. When I got back to being more focused on running at age 40 my weight steadily came back down to 130-132. In my late 50s and since then I dropped a couple of more pounds to the 129-130 level, which I think was due to loss of some upper body muscle. Very recently after being sick for a week with a virus at the end of May I got back on a scale and was 124, which was a big surprise and definitely was less than I ever remember weighing since I was a teenager. I moved back up to 125-126 as soon as I felt better about eating and I currently seem to be stable at 125-126, but have zero excess fat at this weight. Unless I start dong more upper body strength work I think this is my optimal old man running weight.

P.S. Allen53, nice effort on the 5k!

Just came across a somewhat infotaining video using 5kg weight 5k 7percent climb :

https://youtu.be/iW47gb01FeA?t=367

I switched to GCN during this Tour de France - their guys are knowledgeable and way less corporate than NBC or the official site.

Thanks everyone for weighing in on my last question. Aside from getting better images of what you must look like (handsome, too, of course!), and learning that OGII and I are a half-inch from being body doubles, what I really took away was the fact that runners here don’t aim for a weight. Your m.o. seems to be that if you run a race well, you take note of that weight, but mostly you run at a weight that you more or less arrive at.

This may turn out to be the case for me. After coming home and eating normal again, I’m pretty close to the weight at which I’ve raced before. But this fall I’m going to gradually increase to 60 mpw, and if I don’t pile on the chow to compensate, I’m going to lose a pound every other week without doing anything else. Not to obsess about this but I may get a DEXA scan just to make sure my body fat is holding up.