50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Nice Charlie. You should make the trip over to Idaho this year.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Nice Charlie. You should make the trip over to Idaho this year.

Thanks Igy last year I bailed for several reasons smoke from the fires and smoked as in crispy from the speed work.....

It is a nice drive so a strong maybe my friend.

Racerdb wrote:

...

L2b... I'm thinking I need a road trip to Lexington, a few beers at West End, and just talk you into running again.

...

Dave

We did 5 in the rain yesterday. Drive on down anyway.

RF reader wrote:

I do my "long runs" on a 1.78km loop course at a local park. I store a drink bottle (or two) in my car, and take drink as often as I need (which is every 2-3 laps in summer, every 5-7 laps in winter). In summer, I also store an ice bottle in my car to cool the back of my neck during the drink stop, and pour the melted water on my head during my final stop. There is another advantage to this approach. In case something happens and I cannot keep running, I have less than 1km to walk to get back to my car.

I'd find it really boring to do 20-ish mile runs on a 1.75 km loop, although I admit I once did a 20-mile training run on a 10 lap per mile indoor track in upstate New York in January. However, I could invent longer loops, like 4 or 5 miles. The advantage of this is that I could also stash gels and practice fueling during the run without having to carry anything with me.

The part about not having to run far if something goes wrong is a good one. I almost always run from home and usually do either a modified out-and-back or one big loop. Only a few times in my life have I failed to finish a run, but I've definitely finished runs injured that I probably shouldn't have finished, and wouldn't have finished had there been an easy way to bail out. Something to consider, and weigh against the hamster on a wheel feeling of going round and round one loop.

Last but not least me doing some niko niko "running"

putting the spring back in my 62 year old legs

Notice disclaimer ect...:

I been doing this stuff for 4 months barefoot on soft deep sand so caution is advised in fact

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1j5jxXp2B0MS4Bc-Dk8MWGkY_ixWnZWDu

Charlie,

Nice. Drills that can improve the foot plan and ground reaction time are “bound” to help. I plan to put a little more diligence into drills once I build a base.

Igy

What exactly are we looking at here?

oId guy wrote:

What exactly are we looking at here?

My effort to run the Niko Niko pace my form sucks but the idea of pace/effort and turn over.

The running is believe it or not how I do a lot of my runs yep 40 minutes of pitter patter usually bare foot in the dunes.HR stays around 108 which is about 40 percent of my Heart rate reserve.

The bouncing is to demonstrate what Niko Niko running has done for my legs. My legs feel springy all the time.

Here is an entertaining skit by the guy behind Niko Niko btw he ran a 2:38 marathon after 50.

Ed Whitlock at 85 running 7:18 for the mile with a smile nice video of his mile form:

https://youtu.be/hPO3FTB3w-g

In the video Ed said he was only running an hour a day . Amazing!

Oldest under four minutes Eamonn Coghlan of Ireland, 41 3:58.15.

Oldest under five minutes Derek Turnbull of New Zealand, 4:56.4 at age 65.

Oldest under six minutes Scotty Carter , 5:57.2 at 75.

Oldest under seven minutes Harold Chapson , 6:43.3 at age 80.

How can slow running keep you fast? My theory is that slow running worked for Ed because he had a large amount of fast twitch type 2a muscle fibers. The over distance slow running eventually recruits the 2a fibers aerobically conditioning them without the 2a fibers losing that much force which translates into speed endurance.

Ed says "One size does not fit all"

https://youtu.be/5JKndsQWofo?t=109

Charlie wrote:

How can slow running keep you fast? My theory is that slow running worked for Ed because he had a large amount of fast twitch type 2a muscle fibers. The over distance slow running eventually recruits the 2a fibers aerobically conditioning them without the 2a fibers losing that much force which translates into speed endurance.

Ed says "One size does not fit all"

https://youtu.be/5JKndsQWofo?t=109

Charlie wrote:

How can slow running keep you fast? My theory is that slow running worked for Ed because he had a large amount of fast twitch type 2a muscle fibers. The over distance slow running eventually recruits the 2a fibers aerobically conditioning them without the 2a fibers losing that much force which translates into speed endurance.

I have seen this written somewhere, that it took 3 hours, on multiple days in a row to deplete the slow twitch fibers where all that was left was intermediate and fast twitch. Ed himself said he was somewhere in the 9 min range, perhaps a bit slower during his peak (the 2:54 thon). 9 min pace for 3 hours is a lot of miles and faster than most realize.

Isn't Niko niko pace much slower than 9 min pace?

He also raced almost every week, anywhere from a mile, 5K to 10K. I'm just saying he ran a lot faster than people realized and he called 9 min pace slow jogging, which, for a world class guy, was jogging.

2a initial recruitment threshold varies depending on how fit you are no source table but it is interesting:

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20784071/how-muscle-fiber-recruitment-affects-running

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performance/

IMO recruitment also depends on your fiber type mix. Fiber fatigue probably plays an important role in recruitment threshold that is why long runs work. So fewer slow twitch fibers leads to faster fatigue of the slow twitch fibers which leads to quicker recruitment of 2a fibers.

The real shame is we do not have the details of Eds Training. How often did he race? Was he running 9 minutes a mile at 72(3) when he ran the 2:54? After watching all the videos I can find on Ed talking about his training it seems like his perception was that his daily pace felt really slow to him.

My Niko Niko pace is kinda tainted because it is so inefficient very fast turn over with some knee lift but very short stride length. My MAF pace uses a normal stride and is about 8:30 on a track but I have not done the formal MAF test. Heck I no longer even own a HRM just finger to the neck.

Niko Niko 108 HR

MAF 120

Resting 60

Max 190 or so

The other difference that I believe is HUGE is running barefoot in the sand. It takes a lot more effort to push off also more balance and fine motor control all this leads to stronger feet,ankles and hips. Anyhow time to run.

Adding Bobby McGee on Alactic Hill Strides to my routine.

https://youtu.be/sHrdzi_UJYw

What if have you flat feet? (pes planus) - I don't think it's wise to run barefoot without a significant risk of injury. I've been a flat foot all my life, studied Tae Kwon Do in my younger years and had problems with my feet in that endeavor and eventually quit after a few years (the Master instructor had some negative comments about "flat foots" trying to do a high-kicking martial art such as TKD without developing problems later on in life).

I also completely ruptured my PTT in an uphill sprint finish of a 5k a few years ago which I felt was directly related to my flat feet (and the foot & ankle surgeon I consulted with agreed with me).

I've been fitted with custom orthotics (decades ago) which seemed to help in those younger days but haven't really prevented any of the more debilitating foot & ankle injuries I've sustained here in my late 50s. I can barely walk right in barefeet without discomfort...I can't imagine trying to run - even in soft sand.

It's been a long time since being on this board. Lots of good reading on training. Anyway two days after placing third at club xc in Spokane (Roger I'll get you yet) I underwent shoulder surgery. And if you know anything about shoulder surgery it is a very complicated and slow recovery. And then about three weeks ago I had foot surgery on a torn tendon on a toe that I have had for some time now. So I have not run since Spokane (Dec. 8). Both surgeries went well but it will be some time before I can train again. So 2019 is pretty much out for me. In 2020 I'll be 65 so new life. Anyway, good luck to all and I will keep track of all of you that compete.

Hi Charlie,

Respect for posting so openly.

Good inspiration.

Unfortunately, I cannot access the mp4 here in Germany.

Wishing you great health and fast running!

Thank you From the other side Good Running to you as well. I am set up a youtube channel but the videos are mp4 but I will be working on that as I want to share this wonderful place I now live with others. I did a double loop at Siltcoos Lake trail then across the road for a couple of miles barefoot walking along the ocean just out of this world wonderful places.

Flat feet that really sucks and I know nothing about this issue glad you found a solution

64 tore my left rotator cuff last year about this time really set me back upper body wise but it finally healed say 90 percent good luck with the rehab.

Thought you might like this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss90yQQfi5Q

Thanks Charlie for the video. Not being able to run right now watching the race gives me hope that someday...