50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Rtype wrote:

According to the Road Runners of America report the numbers of participants drops dramatically at age 60. Personally, I've seen quite a few folks fall by the wayside in their late 50's.

Looks like you can add me to that statistic.

I enjoyed a nice little comeback at age 56-57 ... running just a couple days each week, with a two days of bicycling. I remained injury-free and ran a 3:25 marathon, and a 20-minute 5K.

At 57-58, I got more serious, running workouts and 50-mile weeks. That went great for five months, and I ran 18:58 for 5K and a 1:28 half marathon.

Then the injuries took over. Achilles, knees. I had to take time off, back off mileage, and substitute cycling for recovery days. I hung onto enough fitness to run 59:59 for 15K, and a 3:07:23 marathon. Then I stopped running.

Even after three months of no exercise, the knee problem persisted. A PT diagnosed it as "runner's knee" and over the course of a few more months I was able to rehab successfully. Mileage got back up to 50 per week, with workouts.

Race times (5K, 15K) were a bit slower, but age-graded a little higher at age 58-59. Knee pain was manageable by continuing with strength training.

Then in the autumn, near the end of a fast-paced 17-miler, I tripped and fell hard on my knee. I initially tried training through it, then took a couple weeks off. The pain persisted. More time off. And still no better.

It feels like "runner's knee," but I've noticed a few differences. It's much more painful on the bike and elliptical than what I experienced the year before. And full-range leg extensions, even with the lightest weight, are very painful.

It's been more than three months with zero improvement.

Folks with prior knee injuries: Any thoughts?

I've been putting off any sort of medical diagnosis -- don't want to take the time or spend the money. Plus, I really need to focus on work, and this is a good excuse to step away from running for a while. I really struggle with prioritizing, and with time management.

Still, I miss competing, and had been looking forward to the new age group (60 in August). A 5K yesterday was supposed to kick off my 2019 season, and I was feeling rather disappointed to not be racing. Aargh.

Allen man I really feel for ya but 60 is not the finish line;) As far as the knee I have no advice never had a knee issue.

Sixty Two 51 months into this comeback I feel like sharing my journey.

Running is a Three part Tragedy on many levels.

Beginning the start the excitement of a race , training cycle, age group comeback

Middle reality sets in injury pain toughness a long ways to go

End even if you "win" you eventually feel empty wanting

There is joy and satisfaction even at 62, Running is my lightness of being

I was making some progress a few weeks back before my upper respiratory infection. I texted my running mates that “my latest and not so greatest comeback will be delayed.”

syracuse wrote:

I remain interested in hearing how participants in this thread deal with challenging cold conditions. Many of you have already chimed in and I’m thankful for your thoughts. Given the recent polar vortex conditions, especially in the upper midwest and northeast, perhaps a few more of you would be willing to share your experiences. Thanks in advance.

Treadmill. I don't even think twice about it. Last week during the cold spell I managed a 13 miler, a tempo with some hills and some strides. Fortunately the temps broke and I've been outside, in shorts, the past 3 days. But I have no problem doing my workouts on the treadmill.

Dave

Allen1959....

I've found extremes with my running hurt me. So I'll avoid marathons at all costs, long runs over 13-14 miles or so, high mileage and hard track sessions. Thats why Tinmans plan seems to work for me. Its just moderate, consistent year round training. For the most part keeps you fit and healthy.

And I've had those thoughts of giving it up many times the past few years. Not lately but more often when running is not going well and injuries are demoralizing me.

You'll be back.

Dave

Allen1959 wrote:

It's been more than three months with zero improvement.

Folks with prior knee injuries: Any thoughts?

Sorry I sounded a bit alarmist, didn't mean to set that tone.

I think quite a few folks here have been in that injury hole, from which it seems extraction is impossible. Your injury was acute, that fall. That does not sound like the severe osteo-arthritis that can shut you down. Even that didn't stop Dick Beardsley, who posted here before. He's had both knees replaced and he is still kicking butt.

So maybe get that DX to get information. And then not take one doc at their word, take the info to at least 2 or 3 docs.

The difference I've seen here is so many of us have been injured over and over but we still burn with that desire, and we just keep fighting back...successfully!

Racerdb wrote:

Allen1959....

I've found extremes with my running hurt me. So I'll avoid marathons at all costs, long runs over 13-14 miles or so, high mileage and hard track sessions. Thats why Tinmans plan seems to work for me. Its just moderate, consistent year round training. For the most part keeps you fit and healthy.

Dave

Absolutely agree, Dave. I keep track of my overall work effort on a scale of 1-4. I used to have a "4" at least once a week, often twice. My most recent base build has been my most successful, with only two "4's" in the past three months. Almost every day now is a "2" or "3". I almost always leave something in the tank for another day.

SCgal’s Husband... thx again for the 1” lift advice for my son. Would any local shoe repair shop do? I don’t want to have him do the orthodic (yet) with all due respect to folks in this field.

Thanks.

KP

Allen1959 wrote:

....

It feels like "runner's knee," but I've noticed a few differences. It's much more painful on the bike and elliptical than what I experienced the year before. And full-range leg extensions, even with the lightest weight, are very painful.

It's been more than three months with zero improvement.

Folks with prior knee injuries: Any thoughts?

As a 69 year old who is running reasonably well at the moment I would say that running after age 60 requires a definite change in mindset and a lot more patience. After training hard before turning 60 and running reasonably well (38:46 10k, 18:48 5k) at age 60, I then spent most of the next 7 years with many periodic training breaks due to overuse injuries (Achilles, calf strains, ITB, runners' knee, piriformis, etc.) My takeaway was that inflammation goes away really slowly after 60, and I had to back down to the level of just walking until there was very noticeable improvement in the injury, and then be very gradual and patient in building back up. My last bout with runners' knee was an 18 month process to get back to the point of no knee pain.

Allen1959, if you don't notice any improvement within a few more weeks, I recommend seeing an orthopedist and finding out what is wrong in the knee. I waited a year before I finally saw an orthopedist and by then my knee still was sore after running, but I had gone from zero running a year earlier to about 35 mpw at that time. The doctor told me my knee looked great at that point but I had just a little inflammation at the top of my fibula which was the source of my pain, but was not affecting my running movement. Patience with the healing process is usually not a strong point for runners.

After 60 paying attention to the small signals from our bodies about overuse gets much more critical, and I think that training a larger volume at a lower intensity becomes a better strategy for most of us. Also, fitness can be recovered after injury breaks, but it is a slow and sometimes frustrating process. I can't tell you how many times I have thought, "I finally have gotten old and slow and will never run fast again" after having a couple of bad training days. Eventually that will become true, but it can be staved off for a long time with patience for the healing process and persistence in the process of rebuilding fitness.

Racerdb wrote:

syracuse wrote:

I remain interested in hearing how participants in this thread deal with challenging cold conditions. Many of you have already chimed in and I’m thankful for your thoughts. Given the recent polar vortex conditions, especially in the upper midwest and northeast, perhaps a few more of you would be willing to share your experiences. Thanks in advance.

Treadmill. I don't even think twice about it. Last week during the cold spell I managed a 13 miler, a tempo with some hills and some strides. Fortunately the temps broke and I've been outside, in shorts, the past 3 days. But I have no problem doing my workouts on the treadmill.

Dave

+1. The last time I checked, I was training to race better, not to prove my "toughness" to anyone, including myself. So unless I am planning to race in extreme cold, there is no point in acclimating my body to that kind of weather. One part of body that is hard to cover up is my face, which starts hurting under extremely cold weather.

M: off.

T: 7 miles.

W: 6 miles.

R: 6 miles.

F: 7 miles.

SA: 6 miles.

SU: 10 miles.

So this was the same volume as two weeks ago, except I did my 10 miler outdoor. (mid to high 60s, after hitting low teens on Wednesday.) It started with 9:13 for the first mile, and ended with 7:40 for the last mile. A bit longer than the run on previous Sunday, and a bit faster finish. So I consider this as another step in the right direction. My feet no longer hurt during or right after running. But they still hurt first thing in the morning. I guess that's the last thing to go out. So I will keep doing my rehab works for a while.

Rtype wrote:

I would just offer a word of caution as folks approach 60. According to the Road Runners of America report the numbers of participants drops dramatically at age 60. Personally, I've seen quite a few folks fall by the wayside in their late 50's. I noted previously a race I'm doing in 2 weeks their is only 1 other M60 person with, now, 199 people registered but lots of 50's.

Allen1959, apropos of the above, it may be just as well you're redirecting your attention to other things. I suspect that men dropping out in their 60s is a product, to some decree of increasing amounts of leisure time and a winding down of careers. This gives men more time to train -- but just at the time when the body is rapidly losing the resilience that it had a few short years earlier.

I'm curious to know if the knee is tender when you cross-train or just when you do an impact activity (i.e., running). You could do worse than switch to boring cross-training 3-4 times a week until the knee heals.

KPdx,

SCgal's husband again - Try your local shoe repair shop first. If that doesn't work let me know and I can send you the name of some places that will do the work. They'll actually put the wedge in the sole of the shoe, not just an insert inside. It made all the difference for me. Good luck!

late to the boards:

thanks everyone for the props--if you ever get to race in tallahassee, i’d recommend it, and i’m sure CM would echo this as would SCgal (we still haven’t met, have we?). it’s a fair and honest x-c course, and the rare park that is dedicated solely to the sport.

as for my race report:

the good: i won my age group for the first time at a national meet since i turned 50, and was able to help our 40s team win a team title for the first time at an x-c meet in really long time. it is no exaggeration when i say the team accomplishments are more valuable than the individual ones for me--indeed, it has been having good teammates that’s made pursuing individual goals worthwhile and fun.

the bad: winning my age group was tempered by the fact that a 56 year old spanked me over the last 1k.

the ugly: i’m feeling more fit, but still grappling with the fact that what used to be tempo/workout paces a couple of years ago are now race paces. i’m also still struggling with how difficult it is to get from 90% fitness to 100% fitness; or, i have to resolve to accept that i may be overestimating what 100% means for me now.

and the good again: as CM mentioned, hanging with teammates competitors at these meets and after really is more fun than anyone should be allowed to have. and as a fan of the sport, watching the pros, and getting to meet some of them, is also pretty cool. i won 10 bucks by taking bets in the women’s race, shelby houlihan against the field, then met her later at proof brewing, where she was sitting with amy cragg and molly huddle (the victim of houlihan’s kick), and got to thank her personally. got to meet some young junior runners who are freshman teammates/roommates of a girl i coached who’s now running for northwestern. got to cheer on a few ucla freshmen running in the junior races as well, while hanging with their coach/alum devin elizondo and fellow alum, meb keflezighi. got to sit next to a couple of young elites on the flights to and from tallahassee, a 2:14 marathoner from southern california, and a sub-16 5k female texan running for mammoth track club, and was reminded of two things: 1) it’s cool to actually converse with people you’re sitting within inches of for several hours instead of immersing yourself in technology; and 2) it’s cool to be reminded of what it’s like to be young and to dream.

so, way more good than bad or ugly…

carpe crepusculum,

cush

Allen - definitely get a medical diagnosis and if you have insurance you may need an MRI, although they may be able to diagnose something without that. I'll wait 3 weeks for an injury to heal itself, then take action. In the past a coupe times I let it go and sat out a lot longer than that, and things didn't get better until I eventually got in an had some physical therapy.

re: the weather, we didn't get the extreme cold over the last couple of weeks (10s a couple days) but had a fair amount of snow, enough to make all the trails an parks inaccessible. Last week I did 9 runs, with 3 on the treadmill to give a break, 4 on pavement, and 2 on xc terrain in Florida. Anyway, as I said in earlier discussions, I'll mix it up.

and re: 60 - at USATFs over the past year or year and a half the 60-64 has had the most competitors, teams, and deepest age grading.

socalcush wrote:

the ugly: i’m feeling more fit, but still grappling with the fact that what used to be tempo/workout paces a couple of years ago are now race paces. i’m also still struggling with how difficult it is to get from 90% fitness to 100% fitness; or, i have to resolve to accept that i may be overestimating what 100% means for me now.

Man, isn't that the truth! Just as little a s 3-4 years ago I was running workouts that I can't touch in a race these days. HM pace now being 5K pace etc...

The problem is my head. I still think 16:30...sub 17:00... doesn't sound that fast. The reality is I need to accept I'll never see the other side of 17 again. Hell, the way things have been going I may not see a sub 18 again! Guess thats not the end of the world though.

Dave

“and re: 60 - at USATFs over the past year or year and a half the 60-64 has had the most competitors, teams, and deepest age grading.”

Demographics (baby boomers) support my belief that this cohort (and on either side) should remain a force well into the future. Also correlates well to the running boom of the 1970s.

Of course you realize that this can compound with age. I was competitive in the 55-59 age group a dozen years ago. Few of my competitors then are racing today, including me. A couple have aged well, but by and large most are not even in any results I see in Masters News. I give myself some credit for being stubborn enough to keep trying. The key is frustration tolerance.

I should add, there are several competitors that were down the ranks in the age group back then, that aged much better, moving up through the ranks over the years.

Thanks, all, for the constructive feedback. So, yeah, I should get a professional opinion (or two or three). Meanwhile, it's possibly inflammation that's slow to heal. My runner's knee was never completely gone, but the pain in both knees was manageable by keeping up with a minimal strengthening and stretching routine. Falling and impacting the right knee may well have increased the tenderness and inflammation beyond what I could "manage through." Going forward, the "moderation" advice is worth heeding (thanks racerdb and others). Over the past couple years, I became probably overenthusiastic. Finding myself suddenly very competitive (after a 13-year pause in racing), I was inclined to really push the limits. Age-grade performances of 80% were enough to win M55-59 at major local events, and Masters and even overall at smaller races! Crazy! A sub-3 marathon at age 60 was starting to seem not so far-fetched. After running 3:07 at age 58, injured, and on only 45-mile weeks ... what would 60-mile weeks do? Well, if I get back to running again, I'll shelve the marathon plans and just enjoy competing locally at the shorter events.

KCgeezer wrote:

I'm curious to know if the knee is tender when you cross-train or just when you do an impact activity (i.e., running). You could do worse than switch to boring cross-training 3-4 times a week until the knee heals.

Yeah, it hurts when spinning on the bike, and also on the elliptical. That's especially in the beginning of a workout; it diminishes as I continue. A few weeks ago, I tried running on the treadmill. I could reduce the pain by putting the incline at 5% ... that seemed to take the pressure off the knee somewhat. I can get through a 40-minute session OK, but then the pain comes back even worse afterwards, waking me at night, etc.