50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Tim, I agree 3) is causing 4). ... I know at some level of consciousness you know that too and are just looking for someone to confirm it. :-) A very common malady based on logs I see all over LRC (and my own behavior) relative to this large stack of books from the experts sitting next to me.An not_too_long_ago elite 1500m guy who trained me for a while told me recovery runs ARE "uncomfortably slow" and not your "natural pace". Combating some injury issues caused me to reduce weekly mileage (cross-trained on bike) so I felt fresh for my hard runs when training for 2011 NYC marathon. Worked out well, I ran a steady race and came within 1m40s of my (aggressive) goal.Best of luck to you. Hope knee is doing better.

imarunr wrote:

3) I'm probably running my "recovery" runs too fast, but I find it hard to run slower than 7:50/mile pace. And Thursdays are with a small group, and I'm too stupid to let others go. :)

4) Any other 50+ runners find that you go through stretches of runs that feel harder than they should, with the occasional, rare day when you feel great? How to reverse that so the great feeling days outnumber the blah feeling days???

Thanks for reading my extra long posting this week! Cheers to all.

Tim

former walker wrote:

But it's also important to have an experienced RW athlete or coach check your technique- you don't want to be developing any bad habits with your technique. I suggest setting smaller goals- 25 is a good goal because it is 2 minutes per 400m.

To Fruticetum: I dabbled a bit in race-walking as a teen, and I agree with "former walker" that having a good coach is important. Race-walking is not a natural motion, and requires an attentive coaches eye to help perfect it. I could never, for example, have imagined trying to speed-skate without a coach. As for training, I never committed to full time race-walk training, it was mostly a minor side-effort to my running, so I don't have much to offer to a full-time race-walker. Just like with speed-skating, many of the basic elements of strength, speed, and endurance are in common with running, but there are many event specific components to training that do not correlate. As such, I'd be pleasantly surprised if you find much help on this thread beyond just general concepts of developing aerobic fitness (but it never hurts to ask.) I certainly congratulate you on your current successes and wish you only the best of luck on your future in this endeavor.

imarunr wrote:1) My quads felt sore and stiff all week. Not sure if this is because Sunday's 20-miler was that tough, or just the cumulative workload catching up to me.

2) Left knee is getting sore (like runner's knee). Not a big deal yet, but worth keeping an eye on. Been wearing Saucony Mirages a lot. Going to switch back to my tried and true Asics DS-Trainers for a while.

3) I'm probably running my "recovery" runs too fast, but I find it hard to run slower than 7:50/mile pace. And Thursdays are with a small group, and I'm too stupid to let others go. :)

4) Any other 50+ runners find that you go through stretches of runs that feel harder than they should, with the occasional, rare day when you feel great? How to reverse that so the great feeling days outnumber the blah feeling days???

Tim, Lord knows I've made more than my share of mistakes over the years, so take this for what it's worth.

I'll piggyback on what "over50" said about running recovery runs too hard. I used to run mine too hard, too, and ultimately suffered for it. You'll notice that I don't post times for my easy runs; I don't track them anymore. I'm thankful that I can run with a group of slower runners from time to time; the conversation also helps keep my mind off the pace.

Also, I have read where changing shoes that have significantly different heal-lift can affect the quads as well as calves, so switching to Mirages may also have caused some of that soreness. Within the past year, I have developed the habit of changing the shoes I wear day-to-day which has helped to ward off those types of persistent niggles. I no longer get sore calves, for example, after speed workouts or races now that I do some of my easy running in flats. I also sometimes do speed workouts in trainers. Lately, I've been trying to run more on grass. Basically, I've been trying to mix it up a lot, which I think has helped.

From what I've read, knee pain is usually the result of a muscular imbalance elsewhere, so it's quite possible that the quad soreness and the knee pain are directly related. Just a thought.

Yes, I definitely have days that feel very sluggish: yesterday, for example. I've never been able to pinpoint what specifically causes it....I think a lot of it might be psychological; some days, getting out the door just feels like a chore. I do know that now that I'm taking the easy runs easier, it has helped to lessen the frequency that I feel sluggish on the days that really matter....the training days.

Finally, last summer, Pete Magill wrote an article in "Running Times" that had a segment on dealing with sluggishness and quad soreness among other things. I haven't tried all what he suggests, but I would take his word for it that these remedies work:

Just my $0.02.

BTW-I love that several of you are posting more details reflecting on your week of training. Alan B, I hope that you recover quickly from whatever went "twang." Your training seems pretty solid, sometimes it's just hard to know when something is gonna give.

Speaking for myself, I'll just state that one of the hardest lessons I've learned, and one I must continually call myself on, is to run where I'm at, not where I want to be. I haven't been 100% adherent to my own advice, but I have found that the more I stick within the suggested paces and volumes of say Daniels or McMillan, the less I have had troubles. I've also tried hard to leave something in the tank after each workout. If the penultimate one taps me out, I stop....I didn't used to do that.

Other's thoughts?

imarunr wrote:

2) Left knee is getting sore (like runner's knee). Not a big deal yet, but worth keeping an eye on. Been wearing Saucony Mirages a lot. Going to switch back to my tried and true Asics DS-Trainers for a while.

For me, the left knee means shoes. Either too many miles on my stability trainers, or trying again, always unsuccessfully, to transition to a more neutral model.

One thing that helps me get more miles from my shoes (and knees) is to run *strictly* out and back. By that I mean out on the left side of the road, back on the right (same) side of the road. Interesting bit in "The Last Pick" about that (pages 86-89 in my paperback). On his cross-country run Dave McGillivray burned out his left knee, and switched to running on the "wrong" side of the road until his right knee gave up. Since then he made it a habit to just switch regularly.

Also rotate as many pairs of shoes as possible. This is kind to your joints because they get a change-up. And with many pairs going, it's easier to pinpoint if one pair or one model is causing the trouble. (If you are going to wear them out before they die of old age, it does *not* cost more to have several pairs at once. That's a misconception.)

As for running too fast on your recovery runs? I'm shocked! Shocked! :)

Fruticetum wrote:

Just a note. You runners who talk about doing a 5K in 16:00 might be laughing when you see my goal is to walk a 5K in 24:00, but I would mention that the world record for a 5K is 18:36, and the American record in my age group (50-54) is 22:02.

You are right that people "talk" about 16:00. Only a few actually do it.

Who said 24:00 was slow? A couple years ago I ran a 3-mile in 24:53, which translates to 25:49 for 5-K. At the most recent local 5-K, I just looked up the median male finish time at 27:36.

I love walking, wear a pedometer everywhere except running, and try to get in 4000 steps a day (about 2 miles). But the race-walking technique doesn't interest me at all. If I want to go that fast, I'll run. Still, I'll be curious to read about your experiences.

Just my two centavos:

LONG ago, when I used to be a real distance runner, I would hit those stretches of staleness and weird little injuries. I don't know where I got the idea from but I used the "20% solution" in which I would pull back both the distance and the intensity by 20% for a week. I would reassess at the end of the week and simply repeat until I felt better. I always felt better after a few weeks back then.

It was the sciatic nerve jumping out of a groove in my back. I'll know instantly if/when it jumps back in. I didn't sleep so well last night, skipped my workout this morning, and had weird pains on the right side all the way to the sole of my foot. I did 1/2 hour on the elliptical and my usual stretching session, and felt temporarily better. I should have been in bed over an hour ago, but this has me wired. This is the injury that laid me low in 2005, *not* the injury in the hip flexor that I have been nursing since 2010.

Great advice. My test is "good form". If I can't maintain form, I cool down. What frustrates me is: (a) it wasn't a workout; (b) I knew I should walk but didn't. Unforgivable. Gonna try to run easy and stretch a lot. I need to be careful. Does anybody have any idea what happens if you actually tear the sciatic nerve? Is that even possible? It's clearly rubbing right now.

Interesting discussion!

I run by myself quite a bit and generally do speed work by time, and unmeasured distance. (e.g. 5 x 4 minutes). While I sometimes think that I must be a slacker and not running fast enough, most of the time when I check it on a track, I'm dead on pace.

I run SLOW and easy on recovery days, although often I run fairly far (an hour or more). Sometimes it's a blessing to run alone, so I don't feel bad for falling far behind a pack. It's funny, but I really don't even like warming up with my teammates before a race because I can't even keep up and it makes me discouraged before the start.

I also run a lot on grass and trails, often quite muddy ones, and that is undeniably slower. And I don't think it matters that it's not x pace. It can be a bit harder to run on those surfaces, using more muscles, which makes you stronger. Also, I think that the unevenness works on all the small balancing muscles in my legs. I find the unrelenting sameness of the footstrikes on the road makes certain niggles stand out more.

I rotate several pairs of shoes, adding a more neutral shoe to the mix. I have a pair of trail shoes, which I wear 2-3 times a week, a pair of flats (which need replacing asap, ~ 1x week), and this pair of neutral shoes (~3x). I'm monitoring how they work for my feet and am pretty attuned (i.e. so far slightly paranoid) to the differences and stresses.

I will note, however, that I like the way they feel when I run. My form seems a lot better and stronger and I'm landing more naturally on my forefoot (my old shoes forced me to run flatter) and I feel faster and smoother.

So, we'll see how it goes.

I agree with the philosophy of a dear friend and fast runner - "I only run fast when I have to". There is a time for speed work and it IS important to get a variety of paces into your week, but easy recovery time should not be underestimated! So what if many, many women can run faster recovery days and even workouts, if I can beat them in races?

lucKY2b wrote:

Finally, last summer, Pete Magill wrote an article in "Running Times" that had a segment on dealing with sluggishness and quad soreness among other things. I haven't tried all what he suggests, but I would take his word for it that these remedies work:

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=22635

Other's thoughts?

I love reading Magill stuff and who am I to argue with someone with his successes?

Well, I'll take that on, anyway.

I know for ME backing off in my training, yet keeping a small amount of speed work DOES recover my dead legs, so I'll stick with that. I know for me, I'd be scared Sh%*less to run fast downhill in training for fear of overuse injury (since I've done that before). I know for me, a chronic sufferer of achilles issues since 49 yrs old, that eccentric calf stretches didn't work, deep tissue ART therapy did work, so I'd try that instead of fast downhills if I came up with a chronic quad problem.

I also know that my bigger goal is to insure I am still hobby jogging when I'm 70 compared to beating other age-groupers next weekend. So, I tend to stick to more conservative methods ... these days. Now, maybe when I get to 60, and have recurring delusions of age group podium finishes again ...

1500master- good deal with the 16 or maybe 18 lost pounds by now. You're well on your way to being a racing machine!

17 miles in 3 runs, including a harder 4 miles in 26:55. Still slower than I'd like, but moving in a better direction.

I think recovery and easy runs can be hard to judge. I like Daniels in regards to not running faster than your racing level, and I use his charts to indicate what my interval and tempo paces should be. On the other hand, my easy runs are usually at least a minute slower per mile than the slow end of his scale, and there is no way I'd ever be able to do the easy runs at his pace, and still be able to do a tempo and interval workout in that week. I know many people don't seam to have that problem, but if Daniels is needed to slow the easy days down, it may be beneficial to use that limit.

I've always thought Daniels' "easy" pace was a little too fast for recovery effort, but in a way there is "recovery" and there is "easy." By recovery I mean a pseudo rest day, maybe 3 to 6 miles at 2.5 min or more slower than 5K pace. Easy pace can be longer (say 6 to 20 miles), but it's still comfortable and probably more in line with what Daniels lists.

I'll do one or two recovery days a week, one or two workouts (tempos or some sort fartlek or race pace effort), and the other days are mostly "easy" effort.

I also do a lot of trail running, and pace/effort can be real hard to quanitfy. Might be doing 10 min miles on a single track rooted muddy trail, but the effort is significantly faster than that.

AK-50, I always wonder about my effort vs. trail pace. I covered 15 miles the other day on sloppy, hilly, muddy trails and it took me a whopping 2:25!!!! On a time only basis that is super-slow, even if you account for the numerous times I had to climb over or under a downed tree. But I really don't think that the time per indicates my effort on that one, so I try not to care too much. But it IS a little depressing to remember the days when I'd be done with a 15 miler in under 2 hours! ;-)

OTOH, my legs seem to recover better from the trail and it certainly is more engrossing and more beautiful up there - and I don't really mind have to climb over/under or jump over fallen limbs (as long as I don't trip!)

I found Daniels pretty hard, including the "easy" session. I don't really think I need to time my easy or recovery efforts. Maybe the times are useful for people who tend to run their easy runs too fast - so they are an indication of "do not exceed this pace" (Tim?) I don't know that there is any harm in going slower if it feels right.

Alan, I was glad to see that someone else that wears stability trainers keeps giving into temptation and trying neutral shoes. I've lost count of the number of times I've gone down the neutral road just sure that this time, this time, I'd find a one that worked. Hasn't happened yet, but hope springs eternal. :-)

Hey MG! Glad you're on your way back. Your trail runs could have enough change up in your movement and pace to not stress anything too much. One way to look at the slower runs, as opposed to when you ran the same distances in a shorter time, is that you are still spending that amount of time (2:25) exercising. At least that is what I tell myself.

After a harder workout, my next 2 days are shorter recovery runs. With a normal week of 2 hard workouts, the 2 and 3 days in between end up being shorter and slow. Not brave enough to try to push one of the days harder in the 3 day span.

With a different type of solution, R-type seems to be doing very well with consistently good efforts.

Many of my runs are very slow because of the terrain. The trails at the back of my house are too technical to run much faster than 10kms per hour. In fact my speed on the mountain bike up there is rarely ave. more than 13kph. compared to 25-30kph I can average on smoother forestry roads. I also often go off trail so to speak, just tracking along the kangaroo and wallaby lines through the scrub, this tends to be very slow going. This rugged terrain running still creates great overall fitness though and is also a good break from the pounding of the faster smoother running.

I have done a few 3 hour runs through this sort of terrain recently and felt fresh the next day. 3 hours on faster terrain would certainly knock me around more.

Recovery is not much of an issue for me. I guess I don't train hard enough these days! I think my variety of activities helps to keep both mind and body fresh. I did have a bit of a flat day Monday after a solid weekend of activity and an early morning start at work. I went off into the forest near work for a 2hr run and lacked zip and had a bit of a tight left calf, perhaps from Saturdays run being 50% on bitumen. I just rolled out slowly and picked up a forestry road (soft sandy dirt)that I wasn't familiar with and this freshened up the grey matter as I became curious where it would take me. The pace remained in the comfortable zone but gradually quickened as the stiff calf loosened. Turned at 62mins and returned in 57.58 (ok it was a 1.59.58 run not 2hrs lol). Legs felt great afterwards. I ran this in my NB minimus, which are a bit like running barefoot.

Next day was no running just a solid hour in the kyak and also an 8km walk that night, a couple of kms barefoot through the roo poo on the golf course in the dark -very soothing before bed. Yes I washed my feet before going to bed lol. Walking and a x-training session with the emphasis on the upper body seems a good way to recover the zip in the legs for me.

Yesterday I wanted to up tempo a bit and did 4 laps of a flattish 3.2km forest trail circuit before work. 16.40,15.30,14.00,13.00 and the legs felt terrific, as did my psyche. This was also done in the minimus no hint of the tight calf before or after.

Today will probably be a couple of hours on the mtn bike but I will try to get out later for a walk down to the golf course and maybe roll through a couple of 150s/200s strides on the driving range to stretch the legs.

Friday/Saturday weather permitting is a visit to the Australian Alps with possibly a long excursion up to the Bluff, a mountain I haven't visited.

Next weekend is the start of our winter season and I plan to race a 6.9km trail race Saturday (also maybe a 1500) and a helter skelter 5km trail race on Sunday.

I guess doing what may well be a 6-10 hour run hike over extreme terrain the week before short races might not seem ideal prep. but hey it's all just good fun, no sheep stations for the winners.

A lot of great discussion this week. Thanks to everyone for contributing. Certainly much to think about.

I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge some of the great racing that happened last weekend. As I forewarned, Kevin Castille has arrived as a masters runner, with a dominant victory in the Carlsbad 5000. I predict that before the year is out, most of the 3k to 1/2-marathon men's masters AR records will be rewritten. He really is something else. A virtual who's who list in the 50+ range also dominated their respective age-groups: Pete Magill (50), Carmen Ayala-Troncoso (50), Dave Cannon (55), Christine Kennedy (55), Nolan Shaheed (60). I understand it was very windy, so don't know whether times are worth posting...besides, the results interface is just plain awful!

On the other coast, there were some very excellent times coming out of the Cherry Blossom 10-miler:

http://www.cherryblossom.org/results/2012/2012cucb10aw.htm

Here's just a few of the most notable (along with age-grade percentages):

Colleen De Reuck (47) 58:14 (93.4% AG)

Joan Samuelson (54) 1:02:27 (94.8% AG)

Norm Larson (56) 55:35 (95.5% AG)

Terry McCluskey (63) 1:00:10 (94.0% AG)

Simply remarkable!

At 56, Norm went out and ran 10 miles at a 5:33 pace. This week I felt pretty good about running just one mile in 5:30 during practice.....hmmmm.

Many kudos to races well run!

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Week 45

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Greetings fellow 50+ Masters Runners on what will be a sunny Easter Day (and second day of Passover.)

What a week it’s been here in the Bluegrass. The jubilant celebrations that broke out in reaction to the Basketball Championships were not *as* bad as the media outlets made them out to be….but they were a raucous, rowdy bunch, that’s for sure. We obviously survived it, and business is slowly getting back to usual in our provincial town…..we’re now on to horseracing. ;-)

Then comes word that Kevin Castille handily won the Carlsbad 5000 masters category last Sunday, only to turn around and trounce the Masters American Record in the 10,000m on the track Friday night at the Stanford Invitational. His 28:57.88 was more than a minute faster than the current mark! I shake my head in amazement.

OK, so on to my humble week. This was an intentional down week, and I managed just 34+ miles on 6 days, so yes, my mini-streak is over. I hadn’t intended it to be that way, but Wednesday started out busy and went downhill from there. My weekly log reads as such:

Sun: 7.6 easy (very sluggish)

Mon: 5.6 mostly easy, but 1 cut-down mile in 5:30 on the 5-lap/mi indoor track (0.2-mile splits: 70,67,67,65,61)

Tue: 4 easy

Wed: 0

Thu: 6 w/5x(0.2 on, 0.2 off) total time for the 2 miles: 12:00

Fri: 5 mostly easy, but with 8x70-100m strides built in.

Sat: 6 w/ 5k race in 18:04.

Notes:

1) The long run last Saturday apparently took more out of me than I thought.

2) Even for Monday, I cut way back from what I’d initially planned.

3) Tuesday and Wednesday were uber-busy, but I did manage to sneak out for one short run.

4) For the .2on-.2off session on Thursday, I reduced the differential between the off (77 avg) and on (67 avg) portions, and eased up the overall pace a bit from previous efforts (it was a down week after all.)

5) Saturday’s 5k race was pretty consistent with the 3k time I ran a few weeks back. It was an out and back that was more downhill at the start. Even so, I went out too fast and faded as the race went on (mile splits: 5:34,5:53,6:01,0:36.) I don’t mind going out too fast in these tune-up races. I figure as the speed-endurance improves the back end of the race will catch up to the front end.....at least that’s my theory (or wishful thinking.)

Additional race note: I was beat by Glen Mays a 41-year-old runner who recently moved to Lexington from Arkansas. He dipped under 16 minutes (15:57) for the race, this only one week after placing 2nd in the “Run the Bluegrass” half-marathon with a time of 1:14:21 (on a *very* hilly course!) So along with Kevin Castille, the master’s ranks in the bluegrass have gotten a whole lot faster.

I really enjoyed all the discussion and introspection from last week. I hope that we can keep that going. Have a great day and week.

Best Wishes.

PS- I was completely unaware of what Brian Pilcher was achieving up in SF area, thanks

http://masterstrack.com

for reporting on his new M55-59 5000m AR of 16:05.12, as well as his close-call 10-miler in 54:42. Kudos!

Are there any other results to report?

I almost forgot. If you've not received your Running Times magazine yet, Pete Magill has a lengthy article on running for the long-haul. Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but am looking forward to a few good pearls of wisdom from that piece.

Another solid week in the books on the countdown to turning 56 in a matter of days...everything hurts but then again everything has hurt for so long I'd not know what to do with a totally pain-free day...am in constant "management mode"....whatever works, right?

Hit total lifetime miles of 98,643 and streak day number 465 this week...I know, I know...what a geek!

S 2 mile time trial 12:12

M 6 mi slow recovery jog

T 3 x 1000 + 1 x 800 ( w/ 200 recovery)

3:54, 3:52, 3:49, 2:44

W. 5 recovery jog plus massage

TH. 5 recovery jog. (saw a bobcat on the trail)

F. 3 mile jog in pitch black 4:30 a.m. doging pot holes

S. 10,000 meters race (track)...goal was to run 50 consecutive

50 second 200s but running entirely solo with a windy stretch

All 25 laps gutted out 50.45 per 200...was just grinding...couldn't have

run one second faster...a little more than 11 minutes slower than

my lifetime best and equally as difficult...just very deeply thankful

to be able to run...how did Paul Simon put it? "still crazy after all

these years"

thank you all my geezer and geezerette brethren for your weekly dose of inspiration...see you all a little further on down the road...until then, train, don't strain!

MF