50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Allen1959, any more "fluttering" with runs? I had that many years ago when doing intervals, and it was when sleep-deprived and very stressed about work. But I also know that it could be a sign of a faulty heart valve, and can lead to permanent flutter if not looked into (I worked as an Exercise Specialist, certified, for nearly 25 years in Cardiac Rehab, including doing maximal stress testing). So if it returns it would certainly be worth a stress test, better to be a stress echo (sonogram before and immediately after a max TM effort). Better to be safe than sorry. Ed Whitlock disdains physicians, but they can be very helpful for keeping us "ticking" and not "fluttering".

AmKelley, cannot help but wonder what kind of shoes you are running in. A low heel drop shoe might be putting more stretch/stress on your Achilles. Are you starting your runs too fast, stretching too much prior to runs, shoes worn out, etc., etc. Lot of possible factors that might help you, or maybe have a planned day or two off each week, once you rebuild mileage. Before you restart running, deep tissue massage to see if there's any remaining scar tissue (from a very well credentialed massage therapist or PT).

My 1/2 marathon was a treat, Had terrible night of sleep, too full from dinner with my brother, room too hot, etc. The day was weird, 62 degrees, 100% humidity with fog and wet, greasy road, no real warm-up d/t the sluggish bowels from dinner and a huge crowd of runners, with a good 6 minutes of standing before the start. Still able to run a chip timed 1:58:37 for 3rd in 65-69, my first ever top 3 placing in 4 times of running the Des Moines 1/2. Was able to maintain about 9:00 pace after an opening 9:25 mile in the crowds, but that was a good "warm up". Pretty psyched about the outcome, been a dream for years to make the "podium". Also met the winner of my age group, great guy, Richard Martin, a Distinguished Professor of Vet Med at Iowa State and an NIH funded researcher. Now have someone to "chase" next year :)

Mike Lundgren wrote:

Allen1959, any more "fluttering" with runs?...

... Still able to run a chip timed 1:58:37 for 3rd in 65-69)

Mike, I've only run once since the marathon ... no heart flutter. Friday is my annual checkup with my "primary," so I will ask him about it. He will likely have me schedule a test.

Congrats on your half marathon. Especially given the less-than-ideal circumstances!

RE: Ed Whitlock. I recall trying to catch him in a 10K when he was in his early 70s. I didn't!

Thanks for the responses. I think I'm hearing that more days of running does NOT correlate with less soreness.

Perhaps I was running easy more often when running more days and therefore not stressing my body as much ... thus less soreness.

This is a discussion those 20 and 30 somethings have no concept of; that you could run easy 3 days a week and still be sore and hobbling every day (and night).

My followup question is: Are there 'medications' (steroids, 'creams', whatever) that would make us less sore? You know ... Just asking. ;)

I could care less about the performance enhancing aspect, although I'm sure being less sore would be performance enhancing, but man the life enhancing aspect of not hobbling to the kitchen after getting up from the couch.

Cheers

Ken

Mike Lundgren wrote:

AmKelley, cannot help but wonder what kind of shoes you are running in. A low heel drop shoe might be putting more stretch/stress on your Achilles. Are you starting your runs too fast, stretching too much prior to runs, shoes worn out, etc., etc. Lot of possible factors that might help you, or maybe have a planned day or two off each week, once you rebuild mileage. Before you restart running, deep tissue massage to see if there's any remaining scar tissue (from a very well credentialed massage therapist or PT).

Mike,

Indeed, the original injury to the Achilles (on July 5, 2015) was apparently partly a result of doing a 22-mile run in zero-drop shoes. I had worn those shoes for a number of shorter runs but had never gone 15+ in them before. (The other shoes in my rotation had varying degrees of nonzero heel-to-toe drop.) The other things I did wrong were doing a 22-mile run the day after a 5-mile race (the long run had originally been planned for the previous weekend, but it was too darned hot) and doing both the 5-mile race and the 22-mile run with an already stiff ankle after getting a bad cramp the night before the race. You'd think I would have learned my lesson by now.

I would love to get some PT or other nonsurgical intervention for this Achilles issue but I finally gave up after months of fighting my HMO and insurance company. I am going to switch health plans at open enrollment this fall and perhaps try again to get some professional help after the first of the year.

Have you tried any Alfredson protocol stuff?

Reboot runner wrote:

Thanks for the responses. I think I'm hearing that more days of running does NOT correlate with less soreness.

Perhaps I was running easy more often when running more days and therefore not stressing my body as much ... thus less soreness.

This is a discussion those 20 and 30 somethings have no concept of; that you could run easy 3 days a week and still be sore and hobbling every day (and night).

My followup question is: Are there 'medications' (steroids, 'creams', whatever) that would make us less sore? You know ... Just asking. ;)

I could care less about the performance enhancing aspect, although I'm sure being less sore would be performance enhancing, but man the life enhancing aspect of not hobbling to the kitchen after getting up from the couch.

Cheers

Ken

I am checking in late this week, but I now have married off my younger son and told my daughters-in-law that I have a strict "no returns" policy. I looked at Strava this morning and was mildly surprised to see that I managed to get in 34 miles this past week before the wedding, including a couple of good runs in Napa-Bothe state park and on the bike path by Yountville with my older son and his wife and a couple of other wedding guests.

Ken, I have found that everyone seems to have anti-inflammatories that seem to work best for them. I have found that Alleve/naprosyn seems to work very well for me for dealing with general inflammation/soreness. I try to be sparing in my use of it though because extended use (more than a week) starts to cause me gastric problems and nose bleeds. Also, since I got a Garmin with heart rate monitor in January this year and was forced to reduce my running in April with a bad case of runners knee, I figured out that I was very inefficient running slowly on my recovery days and not adequately recovering for my workout days. I went to briskly walking (15min/mi pace) on my recovery days and found that both my speed has improved on my workout days and I have almost none of that beat up, creaky feeling that I had almost all the time when I was running 6-7 days a week the past couple of years. The 65+ body is just not the same as it was in years gone by.

I've been wondering for a long time about diet and its affect on muscles and recovery. I read the book by John? Roll awhile back; of course he was in his early forties at the time, and have wondered whether going super 'healthy' would make a big difference in muscle soreness.

Any experiences out there would be greatly appreciated.

Because, I really don't want to go healthy on my diet if I can avoid it. ;)

There are so many reasons to go "healthy", like less meds for hypertension, less risk of heart or cancer, etc. Plus many different, tasty, enjoyable choices. I really don't get muscle soreness, maybe I am just running so slowly, but didn't even get sore after my 1/2 marathon two days ago.

I do run slow and easy most days of the week, only do speed work once weekly and sometimes a long run on weekends. I just get muscle FATIGUE from harder, longer efforts.

My diet is high in fruits, veggies, lean white meats and fish, high fiber, high in healthy oils (like from nuts). Not perfect, I eat chocolate almost daily, too, although I think that is the perfect food :)

Mike Lundgren wrote:

There are so many reasons to go "healthy", like less meds for hypertension, less risk of heart or cancer, etc. Plus many different, tasty, enjoyable choices. I really don't get muscle soreness, maybe I am just running so slowly, but didn't even get sore after my 1/2 marathon two days ago.

I do run slow and easy most days of the week, only do speed work once weekly and sometimes a long run on weekends. I just get muscle FATIGUE from harder, longer efforts.

My diet is high in fruits, veggies, lean white meats and fish, high fiber, high in healthy oils (like from nuts). Not perfect, I eat chocolate almost daily, too, although I think that is the perfect food :)

That's interesting Mike. Really you're not consistently / constantly sore? Genetics? Or you think it's the diet?

Any other voices in favor of 'healthy' eating to ward off muscle soreness?

I've had 'intentions' many times to get healthier in my eating; not that I'm really that bad, but I don't put an overwhelming amount of thought into it. But, maybe I'm fooling myself and it really is that bad.

Must be the chocolate.

I have had periods of being frequently sore at various times over the years, but not for some time.

I don’t normally use anti inflamms. I wouldn't think my diet is that great. I run lots extreme terrain in light minimal shoes. I had injury issues in the previous 3 years but have been going ok this year. I have actually run more frequently this year, 18 to 23 running days per month until October.

I walk quite a bit, 30 to 40 kms per week most weeks and also spend my work days on my feet and do large amounts of yard work. Also kayak and mountain bike.

No therapies except occassionally for acute injuries and I have terrible biomechanics.

Gotta be the chocolate!

What Mike L said. I also do not get consistently sore from running. From training errors yes, and more frequently from cross-training injuries. No sitting after a run!

Well, seems like "chocolate" is the magic bullet for us :)

Seriously, my wife has always been interested in healthy eating for all our 33 years of marriage, so I'm very willing to join in since she makes it tasty and enjoyable. These last few years she's gone gluten-free, though I have not. We do try to choose organic fruits and veggies, avoid inflammatory-causing foods (red meats a key one, but there's others), choosing non-GMO products, and avoiding corn syrup and high fructose corn syrup filled products. I've actually lost about 3-4 pounds by just maintaining a weight-lifting program 2 x week and avoiding HFCS products.

Genetics? I don't know, my Dad died of emphysema (and had bypass surgery prior to that) at age 60 (I'm 65) and my Mom had diagnosed MS by her early 50's, though she was 83 when she passed away. So her exercise over-exertion symptoms were more related to fatigue, especially fatigue on only one side of her body in the early years. That progressed to overall lower body fatigue and stiffness. So far, I am just getting slower, so relishing my runs as long as I can, they won't last forever.

Oh, and I don't run in low/zero drop shoes, and I do replace my shoes after 500 miles max. Also, I rotate the shoes I run in every couple days so I'm in a perhaps slightly differing gate from the different shoes (NIKE's, Brooks and Hoka's are my choices, though I work in Saucony's often. I work in running specialty).

I've been taking curcumin for the last 45 days. It actually seems to help with soreness. I am in a marathon cycle right now and I have 530kms in the last 30 days. I missed a couple of days taking the curcumin and the soreness started to creep back in, started taking it again and felt better. Just fyi, I am 52 and my previous best 30 day cycle was about 410 kms.

Kevin

Reboot runner wrote:

Any other voices in favor of 'healthy' eating to ward off muscle soreness?

.

I don't generally get sore and I think my diet is a large part of it. I have a green smoothie every day that is heavy on the greens and light on the fruit. I try to eat greens, beans, veggies and fruit. Carbs are sweet potatoes, noodles and brown rice. Very little meat or processed foods, no alcohol and the only dairy I eat is yogurt so nothing like cheese on a pizza. I believe it is far more important to eat high nutrition foods to repair the damage from running than it is to eat to replace the calories. Cheese pizza just won't cut it.

I am currently on mile 2,456 for the year.

kevin

Mike Lundgren wrote:

Well, seems like "chocolate" is the magic bullet for us :)

if it is dark chocolate, indeed it is.

I drink chocolate soy milk right after my workout every day. I also eat double chocolate protein bar as my mid-afternoon snack.

Other antioxidant food /drink I regularly consume are tart cherry juice, green tea, strawberries, Gala apples, red beans, ginger, garlic, turmeric, etc. And I enjoy every single one of them for taste.

My thoughts on diet:

Fortunately my wife is a good cook. She cooks rich meals at times, they taste pretty darn good. I drink wine everyday, Chardonnay rather than the recommended red wine, simply because I enjoy it. My wife packs a work lunch for me every day. At 66, if competitive running was a top priority, I certainly could use a little more discipline in my caloric intake. Perhaps I will do that this year, or perhaps next year, or perhaps never. But in my defense I see few people with as much energy, ability and desire to do my own yard work, continue to be gainfully employed and exercise regularly. My father-in-law ate a protein rich red meat diet and drank hard liquor daily, sometimes to excess. My wife and I were his caregivers. He had his mind, and tremendous amount of energy and will. He was active until the end at age 94. Life is a balance of choices, like most things. These are mine.

Igy

I have been doing eccentric heel drops for about two months now. That may be at least part of the reason why my Achilles is feeling better. Or it may just be that it is getting better on its own. I'm a sample size of one and I can't be my own control group.

amkelley,

I have found I need to continue the eccentric heel drops not only for the Achilles, but to maintain flexibility in the foot. My foot bones seem to compress over timw, resulting in loss of foot flexibility.

Igy

I went thru an achilles issue in August last year. Mind you I am not in the kind of physical condition as you are.

What I did was amazingly simple, and because I wasn't particularly fit, had some amazing results.

I simply slowed WAY down. I was literally doing 11:00, 11:30, and even 12:00 miles. I know, sounds like walking. I simulataneously INCREASED my exercise time. So I went from 50--60 minute runs at 8:30 - 9:00 pace to 80-100 min runs at the much slower pace. I felt surprisingly fresh and refreshed after my runs which was a welcome experience and I was running slow enough to not stress my achilles.

I did this for what felt like 6 weeks. I'm not really sure how long it actually was.

I got back to regular training for about 4 weeks then incredibly ran a 50s PR for a 5k.

I've read some of your past posts so I know that you are an accomplished athlete so this all is probably not useful to you.

Best I can say is just be patient. Take what your body gives you. And enjoy the scenery.

Cheers

Ken