50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Good to hear you getting that heart rate up there lucky. That’s gotta feel good.

Not much to report here. 4 flat and slow 3 miler’s this week to heal up the right calf. Weights every other day. The calf is feeling good but I’ve really got to watch it and not increase the pace too quickly. Patience is not my strong point.

lucKY2b wrote:

and will throw in some other gym stuff (hamstring curls, adductor and abductor exercises, etc.) as appropriate, but I'm going to shy away from targeted core exercises for a while.

Best Wishes!

I'd think twice about doing hamstring curls. People like Vern Gambetta claim that they are more likely to lead to hamstring pulls. Instead you might want to start out doing exercises like one-leg romanian deadlift.

Hamstring curls are worthless. Back squats to below parallel and standard deadlift will work the whole posterior chain just fine.

A satisfactory week. 34 miles with an 8 miler today. Not the 50+ I was shooting for, but progress toward it.

I noticed a connection between doing my ham curls and getting ham pulls. I don't do them any longer.

I had another consistent week of 1 speed endurance, 1 speed work, 1 hurdle workout, 1 lifting workout. Targeting the association championships on the 26th. Of course I hope I run well, but my mantra is to just enjoy being out there competing.

Have a good week!

Hi Folks,

Hope everyone had a peaceful week.

Did 63 miles for each of the last two weeks. Both weeks had four easy days, one long (2hrs) day and two 90min days with a bit of something faster thrown in. Also did 3-5 circuit workouts each week. Not feeling as good as I did around Xmas time.

I wrote it all out here:

http://www.capecodcoaching.com/training.html

I'm doing an interesting health re-building program with a place called Optimal Wellness Labs. I've been participating for over 4 months. It's been enormously helpful but I don't seem to be responding all that well to the most recent protocol they have me doing.

To the person who recommended squats below parallel and standard deadlifts - I have to say...with all sincerity...I cannot get these friggin' exercises to do anything but set me back. I keep going back and trying...usually after having developed better mobility...but both these exercises seem to destroy my running. I get tight in the lower back...and I put on a bit of mass...both of which are lousy for distance running.

I do OK with lunges, single-leg squats, step-ups, pull-ups burpees, thrusters, light presses and cleans, jump squats, and even hex-bar deadlifts. But straight squats...especially back squats...and standard deadlifts seem to do nothing but cause problems. Not really a fan of hamstring curls either...but everyone is different. My mind is open.

All the best,

Paul

PS Dave...I hope your sister and family are recovering.

analogkid wrote:Hamstring curls are worthless. Back squats to below parallel and standard deadlift will work the whole posterior chain just fine.

OK, so obviously my weight-room terminology and knowledge is sorely lacking. I was thinking that hamstring curl was a lot broader term than that. All the exercises I was doing with the Swiss ball were referred to as hamstring curls, for example. But I'll heed your all's concerns and work on the hamstrings (as I will with any weight exercises) following accepted techniques for runners. How are these?

I am a little reluctant to do deep squats; I had a serious problem with my left knee, and the mobility has never fully returned. I am willing to try it again.....but....just a little hesitant.

Thanks!

lucky2B - those hamstring exercises look excellent.

Obviously, I can't provide solutions for your particular case but, in general, athletes have issues with basic barbell lifts because they have never been properly instructed or lack the patience to seek out and instruct themselves. A lot of back issues can be solved by getting technique correct with cues such as establishing good lumbar extension (not hyperextension), driving the knees outward, utilizing good hip drive coming up out of the hole, and maintaining the proper back angle with respect to the hips.

Properly executed back squats actually provide a very good stretch to many of the muscle groups involved and, very quickly, very tight athletes that come into the squat become quite mobile enough to do proper squats. The exercise will pretty much take care of itself when done properly. Here is a good primer:

http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/the_squat_or#.UtM43tJDuSo

Similarly with deadlift - without proper lumbar extension and maintenance of a stable spinal column, i.e., an improperly performed lift - you get injured. Putting on a bit of mass, well, that happens when you get stronger. Appreciable mass gains usually don't take place unless you up your protein intake. But if a slight increase in mass means a strong runner capable of more efficient movements through a runner's range-of-motion and a more stable and upright posture being carried out for the duration of the run, then that seems a worthy tradeoff, especially as we age and fight the tendency to loss muscle mass.

I self-taught using mostly the books Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training and Practical Programming for Strength Training by Mark Rippetoe, watched a lot of video, and asked a lot of questions. But mostly I patiently worked on good form before ramping the weight up on various lifts, until such a time that I was confident that I could do so and minimize the risk of injury. That said, the risk is always there when asking your body to adapt to a new stress, such as increased running volume and/or intensity, or moving weights in a fashion that stimulates adaptation.

Self-correcting: "lose" muscle mass

Hamstring curls - disagree, I think they are important, however, I think many people can do them with different/better technique.

The key for me has always been the eccentric lowering action. I've always lifted with two legs but let down with just one leg, controlled. This means that the up lift is not much weight at all, which never concerned me, but the 'let-down' should be enough that it makes you work but not too much that you can't control it.

3 sets of 10 for each leg, which also means that you are lifting with both legs a modest amount 60 times.

Best was always PNF type work with a trainer where I resisted their push down. They would also push down on my hip at the same time so that it wouldn't rise off the table during the exercise. Trainers are better able to control the resistance throughout the full range of motion, even when the maximal torque angle (around 27 degrees I believe) is passed. With weights the load is constant.

On another note, I heard back from one of the Japanese researchers that did the HIAT vs. sprint vs. continuous training study. They also found no difference between 3 days per week vs. 5 days per week, across the training types. How that plays out longer than 2 weeks I don't know, the study hasn't been published yet and I don't know the length of the training period.

Back to running after the flu during my planned 1 week break. Last fall (transplant docs orders) was the first time I've ever had a flu shot, go figure.

If you give the eccentric ham exercises a try let me know how they work out.

Have a good week!

I am a little reluctant to do deep squats; I had a serious problem with my left knee, and the mobility has never fully returned. I am willing to try it again.....but....just a little hesitant.

Thanks!

A good below parallel squat is actually better on the knees than any of the qarter/half/partial varieties of squats because a properly executed below parallel back squat deloads the forces on the knees and allows one to use the stretch reflex out of the hole to drive the bar upward. It doesn't need to be ass-to-grass, but a good cue is to lower such that the crease in your shorts at the hip drops just below a line parallel to the floor intersecting with the top of the patella. It's not as hard as it sounds and with someone else's eyes to watch (don't look at your squats in a mirror) or a properly placed video camera, you can quickly verify proper depth. Soon it will be intuitive as you continue to perform the lift consistently.

I guess; if you feel that working something in isolation that ultimately you are asking to perform in concert with other muscle groups is efficient or if hypertrophy is important, then bang them out. Remember a larger muscle is not necessarily a stronger muscle.

For me time is important, and if I can do a compound action barbell lift and achieve the same thing, in addition to working a variety of muscle groups simultaneously, then that's the route I'm taking.

I mean keep this in mind, with every squat and as you scale the weight you are squatting over time, you are also incorporating the spinal erectors, which help to maintain vertebral stability, as well as the abdominals, all of which help to maintain a stable and upright torso. One doesn't squat properly or, eventually, without injury without getting stronger in these muscle groups as well. Anyway, I've heard this is fairly important to runners at any distance.

Greetings to all fellow 50+ athletes!

Like some other recent posters, in great measure I'm just excited as heck to get out the door for a run, any run.

Ran 26 miles this week, the highlight a 10 mile run from 5000 to 6000 ft. and back with my young (45) marathoner buddy. Rolling through the woods, just really fun, really working to keep up.

Banged my dumb head into a low hanging branch and came back a bit bloodied!

In the main, I want to run distance up over 30/week. I'll be adding some intervals and looking for races before long. Goals will be modest until I establish where I'm at.

Tim,

Thanks for the advice. I have the Starting Strength book. I've actually worked pretty hard to learn proper technique. I'm largely self-taught...like you. But I have also had help from trainers and other experienced lifters. Been at it 2-3 years. I don't think my form is too bad.

It could be I'm just a bit to ambitious with the amount of weight. I feel like I should make steady progress and when I don't, I get a bit antsy. Since I combine the lifting with a lot of miles, I should probably be even more conservative.

It's mostly that I don't like the way my gait feels messed up after doing heavy squats and/or deadlifts. I know what the books say about how good it is for you. I'm just not experiencing it...if that makes sense.

Thanks,

Paul

PTF wrote:

Tim,

Thanks for the advice. I have the Starting Strength book. I've actually worked pretty hard to learn proper technique. I'm largely self-taught...like you. But I have also had help from trainers and other experienced lifters. Been at it 2-3 years. I don't think my form is too bad.

It could be I'm just a bit to ambitious with the amount of weight. I feel like I should make steady progress and when I don't, I get a bit antsy. Since I combine the lifting with a lot of miles, I should probably be even more conservative.

It's mostly that I don't like the way my gait feels messed up after doing heavy squats and/or deadlifts. I know what the books say about how good it is for you. I'm just not experiencing it...if that makes sense.

Thanks,

Paul

That's great to hear and I'm glad you have the SS book. I refer back to it frequently when I need a quick check on form or cues. Unfortunately, running is one of the worse things we can do to allow proper recovery from most strength training sessions that work with any reasonably serious weight. Novice linear progression can only track when proper recovery is allowed. It's very hard for a consistently high mileage runner to follow a linear progression for a lengthy period of time. Running is the priority, so you have to tailor the sessions according to what supports your goals.

Right now, I have one heavy squat day, where I also do either bench or overhead press, and deadlift; then, 2-3 days later, I have a light squat day where I use 80% of the previous session's weight. This reinforces the previous session's stimulus without necessarily calling for further recovery, but I also don't have a super ambitious training schedule to work around.

I do weights twice weekly, but upper body only. I just don't find that lower/leg work beneficial, and mostly find that the next day's run is virtually impossible d/t fatigue (not soreness). Perhaps if I knew I had muscle loss and needed to emphasize that over my running, I would certainly do that (say if I was in my 80's). But as a 62 year old, I don't feel that sort of wasting is happening as yet.

Thirty mile week after last week's 39. No long run this week, but hope to have one tomorrow, as I build up for April's ultra. The building up in distance total has me a little fatigued, but not terribly, and so will try to reach into the 40's soon, and a 13 miler to come next.

Question, I did find that, even after a couple easy days, that I am still having some fatigue during my run, any others find this to be the case in reaching the 60's? I don't know that I can do more than one harder workout and one longer run, and all easy, short and slow otherwise.

Mike Lundgren wrote:

...

Question, I did find that, even after a couple easy days, that I am still having some fatigue during my run, any others find this to be the case in reaching the 60's? I don't know that I can do more than one harder workout and one longer run, and all easy, short and slow otherwise.

I also find that at 64 one of the big training differences is how long it takes to recover from higher intensity efforts. It seems that increasing volume at a moderate intensity level is much easier to recover from than really hard effort workouts. When I am running well, I still find that I can tolerate one short interval workout, one long interval workout, and a long run (~90 min for me) every week, but I have to be very careful about the workout intensities and build up to them much more gradually than when I was in my 40s or early 50s.

Goal Race: OKC Marathon - April

This week's training:

Mon - 7 mi

Tues - 9 mi

Wed - 10 mi

Thurs - 12 mi

Fri - 8 mi

Sat - 18 mi with 3 mi at MP or better

Sun - 7 mi

Total: 71 mi

Was supposed to do a HM paced run on Tuesday, but could not seem to hold the pace despite flat course and good conditions. Just felt physically worn down all week. So just planned to do the mileage this week and not worry about pace as much. Not having a good feeling about being ready for April goal pace attempt. Not feeling strong on any of my current runs. We shall see....

Trying to also keep up with "weight-bearing" exercises that my husband, the doctor, recommends. Alot of the routine is one-legged, body-weight exercises. Plus yoga once or twice a week... love the yoga!