@Renato Canova; Physiologically explanation of 'new' turbo diesels like Mutai, Mosop, Radcliffe...

Thank you Thank you Thank you Grazie Mille!

Hodgie-san wrote:

Interesting discussion, though the only thing that I am hearing clearly is that we have faster athletes not just running the marathon but focusing on the marathon.

This has been happening for years but escalated when professionalism & $$$ entered athletics and the relatively big payday entered the marathon.

Is the preparation of the 13:00 or 27:30 runner of today any different from the preparation of the 13:30 28:00 runner of yesteryear given that the goal has always been to improve "specific endurance"?

or Bill Rodgers (http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Rodgers/traininglogs/br76traininglog.htm)

so much different from what your athletes do Renato? Or are we just better able to understand what will "probably" work best for any/all individuals.

I reviewed the BR logs for 1975, and two things stood out for me -- how slow his interval workouts were, and all those miles and miles. The majority of his track workouts were at his (April) marathon pace. My understanding is that the bulk of his mileage was at 6-7 minute pace -- were some of those "good pace" runs faster?

some additional thoughts on the plasma lactate discussion. I am of the opinion that lactate values during prolonged exercise may be misleading as there is evidence that plasma lactate concentration can increase in the later stages prolonged constant load exercise. This appears to be, at least partially, due to catecholamine mediated stimulation of glycolytic flux in non-execising muscle in an attempt to increase additional substrates for oxidation directly or indirectly (Cori Cycle). Lactate clearance is not solely due to oxidation in exercising muscle as ~25% is converted to gluconeogenesis and some (I don't know the numbers off the top of my head) is oxidized in cardiac tissue.

As much as muscle glycogen 'depletion' is primarily associated with fatigue during the marathon, continued performance ultimately rests on maintaining plasma glucose levels, which makes the topic of providing of gluconeogenic precursors to support hepatic glucose output an important point.

Along these lines, does anyone have first hand knowledge of the feeding regimens of the 2:05 performers during a marathon? Is is possible that as we approach the 2:00 marathon that these athletes are able to complete the distance without the need for exogenous carbohydrate?

Fascinating discussion. Thanks for sharing your insights and knowledge.

So, do you think the most important fact in his training was the warm-up he had before any session ?

Renato Canova wrote:

So, do you think the most important fact in his training was the warm-up he had before any session ?

He's being sarcastic, Renato. He's emulating how obsessive Americans (and others) are about certain aspects of training.

there is no "fixed" 4 or 5%, the best you can have is a range with an upper limit

now :

http://www.jundo.co.uk/

states in the intro that it's not be used for road races as they are not same as the "control" of a track, but we can see what it predicts for interest ( all assumed run on a track )

13'00 / 27'10 ->59'58 , 2"04'52

here the 1/2M / M "adjusted" ratio is 4.1%

13'00 / 27'00 ->59'15 , 2"02'42

3.6%

13'00 / 26'55 ->58'53 , 2"01'37

3.3%

for a z-ster/sammy type :

12'45 / 26'30 ->58'10 , 2"00'35

3.6%

( tangent : i have no doubt that a mid-58 on the roads is worth a low-58 on the track, so i'd bet my bottom dollar that z-ster/sammy were in ~ 12'45/26'30 shape at the time & by extrapolation, all these guys bottlenecked at 59-flat have to be in at least ~ 12'45 shape ( & probably quicker if they are a recent transient from the 10k ) )

conclusions ?

- M is weak compared to 1/2M & is only now just beginning to catch up & i woud expect many 2"03s to come & perhaps even 2"02

- an ~ 4% ratio looks a good target to aim at from above ( i think it can eventually even get down to 3.5% )

- note how also the ratio lessens from 5k/10k to 1/2M / M, as importance of speed lessens & endurance matters more

@Ross. Thank you for your nice additon.

So if I understood you well, you agree that if the removal of lactate will be done more in the 'oxidation' way by the ST-fibers than in a 'buffering' way by organs and wathever wich other tisues, you possibly extend the point in a race where glycogen-depletion will happen?

So what is interesting than, especially for the trainers at this board:

Is there any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE of how to improve the ability of lactate-oxidation in TRAINING? I know the theories about it (Owen Anderson, George Brooks), but as you say, measuring lactate-levels only gives us an 'total outcome' instead of a clear view in the black box of production and removal, so it is very hard to prove a possible effect of training in this case.

GREAT posts mr.canova.

mosop post boston marathon recovery?

Renato Canova-

I have never posted in letsrun forums ever, but have spent hours reading your many wonderful posts. I have deep respect and admiration for your work, and for your tireless patience and generosity to share with anyone who will listen. It is astonishing that you have continued to share with the community important information from the very top of our sport for YEARS, despite being insulted and disrespected on many occasions. I thank you for continuing to do so. Your full disclosure of Moses Mosop's training for Boston, as well as his training for Kenyan CCC is great. This is such a rare and important learning experience, to see the full training of a top athlete - not as a snapshot of one week, or just before an important competition - but to see month after month.

You are like a good chef, who shares everything you know: realizing that sharing "secrets" will not reduce your value, but in fact increases it. Nobody will put you out of business using your own cookbook, and you can bring enjoyment and value into other's lives by your contribution.

I have a few questions for you, if you would be so kind to address any of them. Perhaps it would be better to speak of them one at a time, but I am too impatient!

1) I would love to learn more about how you designed the volume elements of these programs. As I try to imagine running these sessions day after day in my mind, I am surprised that he seems to be able to truly recover from very long runs with 2x~1hr runs. For example, after a 43km run on Jan 3rd (52km that day), he ran 80 minutes the next morning. I am amazed he was able to get out of bed, much less run a fairly long time.

2) I notice that you do not use a predictable weekly structure. What is some of the thought process you use when designing the long fast runs and the interval workouts, and how many days (and how much volume) of easy running should be used in between hard sessions?

3) I have suspected that the facilities in Kenya, while much less expensive than found in Europe/America/Japan, are nevertheless superior. Dirt tracks, dirt road, and abundant cross country, compared to hard synthetic tracks, hard paved roads, and limited (and small) cross country courses. What are your thoughts on the importance of the softer natural training surfaces (not speaking about high altitude, good weather, or group training) for having good results training at ~200km/wk? Does this have an important effect on better muscle strength and preserve/improve elasticity? Could the added muscle strength from soft surfaces also be connected with the MaxLASS you speak of that is gained from hill circuits?

4) As I understand, Paula Radcliffe trained in Albuquerque, which has lots of softer trails. Are you familiar with any specifics of her training methodology that led to her remarkable WR in Marathon?

Thank you

Yes, this is a detail that is not always captured in our publication of the logs.

I was on a number of runs with BR and others and sometimes only instinctively as if at play, we would drop the pace. Nothing calculated just working harder.

Is the intensity and duration longer and harder for todays marathoner?

The intensity for BR especially, came from all the races that he ran. His "racing" seems to me to be replaced by todays athlete very calculated "workout session"

Today's marathoner does not compete anywhere near as often, at other disatnces or at marathons.

BR did not need to do really intense work on the track to cover all the bases.

Volume of different intensities per week:

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/2585/mosesmosoptotals.jpg

Proportion of total volume of different intensities per week:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7312/mosesmosoprelative.jpg

I removed two weeks that were not representative of a typical week (traveling to Nairobi for passport, traveling for burial of uncle). This makes it easier to see patterns over time. Remember that this is all in Kenya at altitude.

It is easy to see that a range of high-end aerobic and race-specific speeds make up nearly half of Moses Mosop's training. Over time, the bulk of the workload becomes more race-specific: aerobic endurance gives way to aerobic power, which in turn gives way to specific marathon and half-marathon endurance.

Two observation I made looking at the training:

1) Is it time to abandon the traditional weekly long run? It's been a cornerstone of high-mileage training for probably 50 years now, but in this three-month stretch, Moses Mosop only goes further than 90 minutes at an easy or moderate pace a few times. In fact, most non-workout days consist of 50-80min easy or moderate in the morning, and 40-60 minutes easy in the afternoon. Instead of a long run, he gets in very large volumes of faster running. A few examples: 38km at 3:24/km pace, a 45km progression run, 4x5k + 1x3k over hills. Also, can we apply this same philosophy to a 5km/10km runner (should they also abandon long runs at an easy to moderate pace in favor of higher volume, race-specific work?)

2) Is it time to abandon the usual hard/easy approach? Moses usually takes SEVERAL days of regenerative and basic aerobic running between his workouts. If we apply the concept of supercompensation, it's easy to see why--his workouts are of much higher volume and intensity than a typical western runner,and so he must recover longer. Is Moses Mosop taking this approach because he is a very experienced runner, and more standard sessions will not benefit him, or should ALL serious runners (even less experienced ones) do high-volume race-specific workouts with several days of recovery between them?

And how does one go about BUILDING the ability to do such high-volume workouts? Most Americans do 10x400m and call it a day--Moses Mosop turns around and does another 10!

Northern Star wrote:

Volume of different intensities per week:

Proportion of total volume of different intensities per week:

Your information is interesting, but the graphs are hard to read.

Individual lines from the bottom axis would be easier to discern.

Good point; BR raced about every two weeks that year, and I'd say that a 48-minute ten miler qualifies as a hard session. Perhaps the difference lies in part in better planning -- and not working a full-time job (No teaching! Yea!rah!rah!) on top of a 30-mile day. Thanks.

Mr. Canova, how do you measure mMol levels in your athletes? Do you take blood samples and then take them to a lab for evaluation or is there a portable kit that you utilize on-site? Is it something similar to a pricking of your finger such as glucose testing for a diabetic? If you do utilize a portable kit, how can the rest of us get these and use them in evaluating our training?

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and training methods with us.

just lines would be better wrote:

Your information is interesting, but the graphs are hard to read.

Individual lines from the bottom axis would be easier to discern.

Thanks for the input.

km

relative percent

Week 6 was also not representative--hot, traveling. But Renato has said himself, at best an athlete can only follow the schedule about 70-80% of the time, because things like that come up.

Canova.....

What will you be talking about in Colorada in June at distancesummit.com

Only marathon or more?

sebcoe59 wrote:

Mr. Canova, how do you measure mMol levels in your athletes? Do you take blood samples and then take them to a lab for evaluation or is there a portable kit that you utilize on-site? Is it something similar to a pricking of your finger such as glucose testing for a diabetic? If you do utilize a portable kit, how can the rest of us get these and use them in evaluating our training?

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and training methods with us.

You can get portable lactate meters. The ones most physiologists and coaches use are from Lactate Pro.

Keep in mind though, while convenient, that these devices are not cheap, and between gauze, alcohol, needles, etc, it runs about $5 per blood sample.

jT

I speak mostly about marathon, but Scott Simmons organises a free session regarding middle distances, too.

I stay there for two weeks, and with me there are also Moses Mosop and Abel Kirui (World Marathon Champion 2009), plus Imane Merga (World Cross Country Champs) and Mesfin (Ethiopian winner of National Cross Country Championships), and Silas Kiplagat (last year 3'29"27 in 1500m).

We have a training camp, and everybody interested can see the training of these top athletes, and can discuss with me (I plan to use about 3 hours per day for discussing with whom are interested).

Good point; BR raced about every two weeks that year, and I'd say that a 48-minute ten miler qualifies as a hard session. Perhaps the difference lies in part in better planning -- and not working a full-time job (No teaching! Yea!rah!rah!) on top of a 30-mile day. Thanks.

In the 70's & 80's most American Marathoners raced alot. Most of these road races were more or less exhibitions run for cash & prizes mostly all under the table payment of course.

Check out BR 1976:

A marathon in Japan against a relay team. That be some "specific endurance" running.

Runners of the time became adept at working these many races into their preparation for the really important ones.

This also helped market road racing/running in the USA as many of the same athletes competed all over the country head to head.

In Mosop schedule (thanks to Renato for posting) I see one race in three months, a half marathon.

Also see workout like 5x3000m. Substitute 15k race for 70's runner.

Accomplish much the same thing. I don't see the workouts presented as bettter or even all that much different in what is being accomplished.

Of course, the athletes continue strive for the loftier goals/faster times. Same as it ever was.